James (Jim) Davis Oct 11, 2009:

Pity you didn't make the powwow.

tradu-grace Oct 10, 2009:

continuazione del post "my entry is in italian" Convengo che la mia opzione possa non essere corretta ma rende mi sembra di più il suddetto concetto di intestazione (entrustment) dei beni e il non passaggio di proprietà.

Having said the above, I agree with you that the difference between trust nd fiduciaria is very subtle but very important under many features as I explained towards creditors of the settlor.
Off-topic: I hope you enjoyed today's PowWow in Milan which I unfortunately couldn't attend.
Thanks for pointing out that my post was a very good point.

tradu-grace Oct 10, 2009:

to explain the concept better my entry is in Itali Hi Jim,
Per quanto riguarda il Trust:

Bisognerebbe anzitutto verificare quale legge e di quale paese regolamenta il trust. Il trust potrebbe anche essere un trust italiano.
I tipi di trust sono numerosi es. trust revocabile o irrevocabile e molti altri ancora.
La proprietà dei beni passa al trustee salvo poi passare al beneficiario o ai beneficiari del trust che potrebbero essere diversi dal disponente (settlor) a seconda del tipo di Trust al verificarsi di determinate condizioni stabilite dalla regolamentazione del trust es. raggiungimento della maggiore età, rendita per una persona diversamente abile ecc.ecc. Il passaggio di proprietà non permette ad eventuali creditori di rivalersi sui beni del trust (per le fiduciarie italiane non diventando proprietarie ma solo intestatarie la rivalsa di creditori è invece possibile)
Per quanto riguarda le fiduciarie italiane:

In Italia la proprietà dei beni resta al disponente (settlor) o fiduciante (per questo si parla solo ed esclusivamente di intestazione (entrustment) fiduciaria e quindi la fiduciaria non sarà mai proprietaria ma solo amministratrice secondo le istruzioni scritte del fiduciante. Convengo che la mia .. continua..

James (Jim) Davis Oct 10, 2009:

Hi Tradugrace continued Secondly, large Italian banking groups often advertise "servizi fiduciari", where assets are actually held in offshore trusts (including trusts in Jersey in the UK) and not in a "fiduciaria italiana", but they still advertise them as "servizi fiduciari" and in these cases the law applicable is the law of the country of registration of the trust.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&num=100&q="servi...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&num=100&q="servi...

Thirdly, it is all a question of wording, while the substance remains basically the same, a trustee holds legal title, while the "beneficiary" remains the "beneficial owner". So who is the "owner" the person who holds the "legal title" or the benficiary who is referred to in law as the "beneficial **owner**"?
The whole idea of both la fiduciaria and a trust is to divide or confuse the concept of the rights of ownership and obviously no two countries have identical laws.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&num=100&q="benef...

Having said all that, a very good point.

James (Jim) Davis Oct 10, 2009:

Hi Tradugrace Firstly this is a case where 100% accurate translation is impossible without a long explanation like the one you have given. If you look in the Oxford English Dictionary (UK judges frequently do) you find that one meaning of a "fiduciary" is "holding something in trust, acting as a trustee" so your translation does not solve the problem you raised, because any reader who was unsure of your meaning would simply look up the word in a reputable dictionary.

Ivana UK (asker) Oct 9, 2009:

From the definition it does seem to be the same as opening a Nominee account (although I'm open to further suggestions) which I think is what I'm going to use - I'm definitely to using trustee and I'm not at all keen on fiduciary.

L’intestazione fiduciaria sorge con un contratto di mandato in base al quale un soggetto (il fiduciante) trasferisce un diritto ad un altro soggetto (il fiduciario), con l’obbligo di quest’ultimo di esercitarlo per il soddisfacimento di determinati interessi del trasferente o di un terzo o comuni a lui ed al trasferente od al terzo. Con l’intestazione fiduciaria, il fiduciario ha il compito di amministrare in modo professionale, in trasparenza e riservatezza, per conto del fiduciante, il suo patrimonio. La proprietà di quest’ultimo rimane del fiduciante mentre il fiduciario agisce in base alle direttive impartite dal primo.

http://glossario.cordusiofiduciaria.it/intestazione-fiduciar...

tradu-grace Oct 9, 2009:

Jim In my view, it is important to remind that Italian Fiduciarie are different from the Trust companies and carry out their operating legal procedures differently. In trust companies, the ownership/property of shares or assets "passes" to the trust. According to Italian law, the Italian Fiduciaria company never becomes the owner of such shares or assets and it just entrust assets and shares to itself. This is why in Italy we talk about "intestazioni fiduciarie". If you use the word trustee referring to an Italian Fiduciaria, I'm sorry but it is a mistranslation. My source comes from a person who is working in an Italian Fiduciaria.

James (Jim) Davis Oct 9, 2009:

eahill If you click on the little cross next to your agree, you can edit/delete your agree. However, I am sure Ivana, knows what she is doing.

Elizabeth Hill Barsanti (X) Oct 9, 2009:

James Davis' entry is the one I meant to agree with, but I clicked desert fox by mistake. Sorry