Jan 11, 2023 16:02
1 yr ago
48 viewers *
French term

les capacités d'enrichissement d'uranium sont exponentielles

French to English Science Nuclear Eng/Sci
I am translating a screenplay. One of the characters, a nuclear engineer says: "Vous savez que les capacités d'enrichissement d'uranium sont exponentielles. Nous produisons de l'uranium légèrement à faiblement enrichi en restant sous les seuils de 10% d'uranium 235."
Uranium enrichment is absolutely not my area so all help hugely welcome.

Discussion

Daryo Jan 17, 2023:
You might be right about the scriptwriter, although when at least a half-decent budget is available lots of experts get consulted to make the script as realistic as possible.

Still, assuming that a character that is supposed to be a qualified nuclear engineer would be talking nonsense about basics of nuclear enrichment is for me a step too far. Simply doesn't make for a plausible story.

OTOH there is the actual fact that there is s.t. "exponential" in this nuclear enrichment business: the correlation between the targeted concentration of U235 and the resources in equipment and time needed to achieve it - each additional % (of improved concentration of U235) requires exponentially more and more resources.

Some basic facts https://www.nrc.gov/materials/fuel-cycle-fac/ur-enrichment.h...

(I just done it myself: I said "budget" instead of "film production budget")
Mpoma Jan 17, 2023:
@Daryo Your point is a good one, but I don't think it really applies here: it is not sufficient to insert "requises" here: it is also insufficient to say "sont exponentielles".

The ST as shown does not come across as spoken/written by an expert accustomed to speaking using "abbreviated expressions" (with other experts), but as spoken by a scriptwriter with no scientific training, who has overheard an expert on the radio, or transcribed something in jumbled fashion from a Wikipedia page on uranium enrichment. And that's fine in this context.
Daryo Jan 16, 2023:
@ Schtroumpf agree entirely with your comment, but the problem with this text is different: it's not about twisting the text, it's about understanding it in the first place.

It's something that occurs in fact quite often. People who deal with some specialised matter all day long end up using abbreviated expressions for the simple reason that omitted parts are so blindingly obvious to them that they would fill silly/wasting their time saying it. Which doesn't help much the translator who can't be familiar with every single professional jargon, and which is why experts talking the way they're use to may well sound as "meaningless twaddle".

@RosiJillett Has this screenplay been already broadcast/published? Without giving away any spoilers, can you give more of the preceding dialogue, showing how the characters came to talks about low concentration U235? That might clarify what point this expert was trying to make by saying "Nous produisons de l'uranium .... en restant sous les seuils de 10% d'uranium 235".
Schtroumpf Jan 15, 2023:
Retour de mon commentaire effacé Quelqu'un a fait effacer mon post il y a quelques jours ; je le remets donc, avec l'accord de la modération.
Traduire c'est traduire; la réécriture du texte... ... n'est pas demandée. Lorsque vous traduisez les horreurs d'un PV d'audition après un meurtre, vous n'allez pas non plus changer les phrases du style "Elle a mérité ce qu'elle a eu" en "Je regrette, Monsieur le Juge, c'est de ma faute" !
Il ne s'agit pas de réécrire tout - notre métier est ailleurs. Si on devait changer les textes à chaque fois avant de traduire, on n'aurait pas fini notre journée ; ensuite, nous devrions faire valider tous ces changements par le client, sinon nous manquerions à notre devoir essentiel de fidélité au texte original.
Mpoma Jan 13, 2023:
@Schtroumpf Absolutely, although I think a note expounding the Daryo Hypothesis (which looks v. plausible) would be friendly.

But you've got it completely right: if we were told the context was some project to build a nuclear power station, we'd certainly be obliged to point out the fact that, worryingly, the builders didn't seem to know much about nuclear physics. But in the context of a film it is not only good to translate twaddle in as twaddle out, but essential: we want to get the right *tone*, which arguably comes across as slightly more "exciting" than the mundane reality that enrichment gets harder the higher the %.
Schtroumpf Jan 13, 2023:
Twaddle in, twaddle out Everybody here knows and agrees that the sentence means nothing. A capacity can by no means be "exponential", nor can a substance. But the problem is: what SHOULD a translator do with it?
Well, IMO, the translator should translate what is said in the screenplay and keep the sense of drama - if it's kind of a Titanic scenario, nobody cares about scientific rigor when the hull is filling with sea water.
Mpoma Jan 12, 2023:
Twaddle Yes, bringing to bear my expertise with uranium enrichment (I do it in a bucket in the basement: swinging a bottle of U hexafluoride round a pole makes a perfectly serviceable centrifuge), I'd have to say this is, in technical terms, what we nuclear physicists refer to scientifically as "laughable twaddle".

The text says the enrichment *capacities* are "exponential". In other words, as time ticks by, the *capacity* for enrichment increases at an ever-increasing rate (to be accurate, we obviously don't know whether this exponential characteristic is temporal, but we have no justification to conclude anything else).

This can't be uranium: there is only one substance in the known universe which has this quality, anti-kryptonite. I refer you to the table herein: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kryptonite
M.A.B. Jan 11, 2023:
I tend to agree with Johannes, the original sentence doesn't seem to make much sense, somebody perhaps didn't understand properly what "exponentielles" meant.
Johannes Gleim Jan 11, 2023:
Confirmed by Emmanella: Getting from 95% to 99% is a lot of work. In this regime, the law goes the other way, i.e. halving the remaining amount of U-238 requires the same amount of work, regardless how much remains.
https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/627642/what-is-t...
Johannes Gleim Jan 11, 2023:
@ Bourth Augmenter le taux d'enrichissement de manière exponentielle est physiquement impossible. Vous pouvez passer à la base 2 : 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128 ?
Après la 8e étape, on aurait déjà enrichi 128% de l'uranium initial. Ce serait un perpetuum mobile. Au contraire, plus on enrichit, plus on doit faire d'efforts. C'est le seul qui soit "exponentiel".
L'uranium 238 qui n'a pas encore été converti diminue à chaque étape et fournit de moins en moins d'uranium 235 supplémentaire.
Le taux d'enrichissement se rapprochera donc de plus en plus lentement de l'asymptote 100% et ne l'atteindra que dans un temps infini. Pour s'en rendre compte, il suffit d'inverser la fonction exponentielle en fonction logarithmique inversée.

La fonction logarithmique de base se rapproche de plus en plus de l’axe des ordonnées, sans jamais y toucher. L’axe des ordonnées correspond donc à une asymptote verticale.
https://www.alloprof.qc.ca/fr/eleves/bv/mathematiques/la-fon...
Andrzej Ziomek Jan 11, 2023:
uranium enrichment capacities are exponential?

Proposed translations

+5
42 mins
Selected

uranium enrichment capacities are exponential

.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 43 mins (2023-01-11 16:45:52 GMT)
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https://www.google.com/search?client=avast-a-1&q=exponentiel...

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 44 mins (2023-01-11 16:46:56 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

https://arxiv.org/abs/1602.08149

We show that using quantum annealing for recall tasks endows associative memory models with exponential storage capacities.
Peer comment(s):

agree José Julián Díaz
2 mins
Thanks.
agree Jennifer Levey : As suggested elsewhere on this page, the ST is not technically correct. But fortunately, this 'nuclear engineer' is only a figment of the screen-writer's imagination, so it can be translated literally without risk of actually annihilating the planet.
2 hrs
Thank you.
agree Schtroumpf : I like Jennifer's comment :-)
3 hrs
Thank you.
agree Andrew Bramhall : Yes, when it waddles like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it is indeed a duck;
16 hrs
Thank you.
agree Mpoma : The idea is complete nonsense, but you have translated the nonsense correctly, IMHO
1 day 2 hrs
Thank you.
disagree Daryo : by ignoring the omitted parts, you make a nuclear engineer talk nonsense about enriched uranium - plausible to you?
1 day 10 hrs
agree Anastasia Kalantzi
2 days 20 hrs
Thank you.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Selected automatically based on peer agreement."
+3
51 mins

uranium enrichment is an exponential process

I don't think the French — les capacités d'enrichissement d'uranium sont exponentielles is scientifically correct, or, at best, it is poorly worded. The process of enrichment, not the capacity, is exponential, i.e. enriching uranium from 1 to 2% U-235 (double) takes the same amount of work (and time) as enriching the 2% product so obtained to 4%, and so on from 4 to 8, 8 to 16, 16 to 32% etc.


so "Uranium enrichment is an exponential process"

"The EXPONENTIAL LAW FOR ENRICHMENT is that doubling the percentage of U-235 requires the same amount of effort regardless how much there already is. Getting from 20% to 40% is just as hard as getting from 1% to 2%."

"ENRICHING URANIUM IS AN EXPONENTIAL PROCESS, and when Iran began enriching to 20 percent this set off warning signs as this would increase Iran’s ability to make a nuclear weapon"

"EXPONENTIAL PROCESS – going from 0.7% U-235 to 4.5% is ~ 2/3 of the work of making 90% U-235"

"URANIUM ENRICHMENT IS AN EXPONENTIAL PROCESS, so once centrifuges have increased the 0.7 percent U-235 that comes out of the ground to the ..."

But the play's 'uranium enrichment capacities are exponential' is probably suitably ... er, dramatic to be an appropriate translation and if the set wobbles or the lights flicker at that point, nobody, even the most astute nuclear engineer will notice or give a hoot.


--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 57 mins (2023-01-11 17:00:20 GMT)
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If we consider that weapons-grade uranium starts at 60% (90% is ideal), it takes only one more step after the 5 steps (1-2, 2-4, 4-8, 8-16, 16-32) presented above, these steps being mere approximations since the natural U-235 content of uranium is about 0.7%.
Peer comment(s):

agree philgoddard : Good point!
1 hr
agree Schtroumpf : Je crois également que la phrase pêche en français. Mais bon, c'est celle-là qu'il faut traduire (contexte donné : screenplay !), et pas une autre phrase qui nous semblerait plus juste.
2 hrs
agree Kim Metzger
4 hrs
agree Andrew Bramhall
16 hrs
disagree Mpoma : The ST doesn't say that: it says the *capacités* are exponential. Meaningless twaddle must be translated as meaningless twaddle, but accurately.
1 day 1 hr
neutral Daryo : you got rid of "capacités", no need for that, otherwise yes. The ST is too shortened, but perfectly correct.
1 day 10 hrs
Something went wrong...
1 hr

uranium enrichment capacity is exponential


Profile of World Uranium Enrichment Programs-2009
Federation Of American Scientists ·
https://nuke.fas.org › ...
PDF
by MD Laughter · 2009 · Cited by 13 — Uranium enrichment capacity has continued to expand on all fronts in the last ... exponentially increase, resulting in a nuclear explosion.
Peer comment(s):

agree Mpoma : The idea is complete nonsense, but you have translated the nonsense correctly, IMHO.
1 day 1 hr
disagree Daryo : in this ST it's not about that kind of "exponential increase" + a "nuclear engineer talking nonsense about uranium enrichment" is an "assumption of last resort" - plenty others to consider before getting there.
1 day 10 hrs
Something went wrong...
-2
3 hrs

The effort required to enrich uranium is increasing exponentially

The effort required to enrich uranium is increasing exponentially.
See discussion.

Uranium found in nature consists largely of two isotopes, uranium-235 (U-235, fissile) at 0.7 % and uranium-238 (U-238, non fissile) at 99.3 %. U-238 does not contribute directly to the fission process (though it does so indirectly by the formation of fissile isotopes of plutonium 239). Because of the small percentage of fissile material in the natural uranium, and in order to obtain suitable nuclear fuel for the pressurised water reactors (PWR, the majority in Europe), it is necessary to increase the concentration (‘enrich’) of the U-235 isotope from 0.7 % to 3-5 %.
:
The standard measure, the "separative work unit", is the effort required to separate isotopes of uranium (U235 and U238) in the enrichment process: 1 tSWU is equivalent to 1 tonne of separative work units (tSWU).
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

Separative work unit, abbreviated as SWU, is the standard measure of the effort required to separate isotopes of uranium (U235 and U238) during an enrichment process in nuclear facilities.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...
Peer comment(s):

disagree Jennifer Levey : There's no way you can justify equating capacités to 'effort required'.
32 mins
As "capacités" is wrong, you have to refer to nuclear physics to identify the correct term.
disagree Schtroumpf : Retraduisez la phrase en français - elle ne ressemble en rien à celle qui est demandée ! (même commentaire que sur votre réponse précédente, apparemment effacée)
44 mins
Les "capacités" ne peuvent pas monter exponentiellement dans le contexte. Pour en comprendre le sens, il faut se référer à la physique nucléaire et choisir les termes appropriés en conséquence. La traduction littérale n'est pas possible.
disagree Andrew Bramhall : No mention of effort anywhere in the ST;
13 hrs
You're right, but "capacités" is wrong. You have to refer to nuclear physics to identify the correct term.
neutral philgoddard : "Increases" would make sense.
20 hrs
thank you!
agree Daryo : that's technically correct and if it's a nuclear engineer speaking that must be what he meant + there's nothing else that could be "exponential" in this enriched uranium business // OTOH it's got to be said in a way that fits into the text.
1 day 7 hrs
Thank you!
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+1
6 hrs

uranium enrichment capabilities are on an exponential curve

capacité can, amongs many other things (1,470 IATE entries), mean competence or capability.

I agree with discussion entries of the sentence making little sense, even in context.

Note that it is the capabilities, rather than the enrichment levels, that are 'exponential' or can increase exponentially as in exponential growth or factor.

Perhaps we should assume that the French-speaking playwright is qualified in nuclear physics.
Example sentence:

IATE: information technology and data processing [EDUCATION AND COMMUNICATIONS] land transport [TRANSPORT, land transport] TRANSPORT COM fr capacité COM en capability COM

Highly enriched uranium (HEU) is anything enriched above 20% and weapon-grade uranium is commonly considered to have been enriched above 90% ...

Peer comment(s):

agree Tony M : I do tend to agree that this is about (a country's) "capabilities" — something that is being discussed a lot at the moment, as the more uranium they process, the more plutonium they can make...
5 days
Merci and thanks, Tony. Alas, the capacities vs. capabilities distinction was lost on the literal translators - and, crucially, on the asker.
Something went wrong...
1 day 11 hrs
French term (edited): les capacités d\'enrichissement d\'uranium sont exponentielles

the required processing capacities increase exponentially [with the purity of U235]

It makes ***perfect*** sense if you interpret "les capacités" as a shortcut for "les capacités requises.

A nuclear engineer talking about enriched uranium? Unless it's a totally incompetent one that by some miracle is still in the profession, I wouldn't jump so quickly on assumptions of the "that's just meaningless twaddle" kind.

What is the case here, as it happens often with specialised jargon, is that experts often abbreviate what they are saying to the point that it sounds absurd without the omitted parts.

"Vous savez que les capacités d'enrichissement d'uranium sont exponentielles...."
=
"Vous savez que les capacités d'enrichissement d'uranium requises sont exponentielles [par rapport à la concentration de U235 à obtenir.....]"

IOW

"Vous savez que les capacités d'enrichissement d'uranium sont exponentielles. Nous produisons de l'uranium légèrement à faiblement enrichi en restant sous les seuils de 10% d'uranium 235."

in effect means

As you know the required processing capacities increase exponentially [with the purity of U235 required]. We make lightly to low enriched uranium ... (meaning implicitly: we don't need huge processing capacities to get that level of enrichment).
Peer comment(s):

neutral Mpoma : This is very plausible. But inserting "requises" changes the meaning, notably of "de", completely (making much more sense). What you are doing there is *interpolating* (or surmising), not translating. I think a note to the client is more appropriate.
4 hrs
No, it makes the meaning clearer for everyone, even for those who heard the first time about enriched uranium // the only thing that it "changes" is to make explicit parts are implicitly present in the ST.
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