| Pagina's in het onderwerp: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183] > | Should “native language” claims be verified? De persoon die dit onderwerp heeft geplaatst: XXXphxxx (X)
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Sheila Wilson wrote:
So, let's not forget that there's an enormous difference between claiming and proving. I believe that the vast majority of us who want ProZ.com to regain some credibility would be happy to weed out just the totally obvious lies about native language. As far as I'm concerned, people who claim to be native speakers, and who write impeccably in that language (or even simply naturally), should be awarded the benefit of the doubt.
No question in my mind about witch hunts etc.
I don't want a site where you have to jump through hoops proving this, that and the other. I simply want a site where people tell the truth and can deliver the goods. I know that what Lilian says about them not getting second jobs is right, so they don't scare me one jot as competitors, but I am nevertheless thoroughly ashamed to have them declared as my peers on this site.
Sheila
[Edited at 2012-07-14 10:06 GMT]
[Edited at 2012-07-14 14:00 GMT]
| | | | Oliver Walter 
Verenigd Koninkrijk
Local time: 05:45
Duits naar Engels
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| The longest? | Jul 14, 2012 |
Is this the longest forum topic ever? (over 700 posts)
Oliver
| | | | | | Ty Kendall
Verenigd Koninkrijk
Local time: 05:45
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XXXphxxx (X)
Verenigd Koninkrijk
Local time: 05:45
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ONDERWERPSTARTER | Way out there | Jul 15, 2012 |
LilianBoland wrote:
Do you consider people who live in Edinburgh or Dublin native speakers of English?
I must say I'm not sure why I'm dignifying this with a response but just for the record, the answer is "Yes". The question wouldn't even cross my mind.
An English person once told me that it really felt very strange for English people to listen to American English, in general, because it felt as if the language had been kidnapped.
That's not to say this person was questioning the fact that it was still their native language.
I understand what you are feeling when you read things that might have been written by AE speakers, or even speakers of another language. I feel sorry for you, because it must be hard to have to deal with different versions of your L1, but there is really nothing that can stop that machine.
Spare your pity as there is no really no need Neither I nor anyone else on this thread has ever stated that we have any issue with American, Irish, Australian, Indian (etc) English. I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree.
| | | | LilianNekipelov
Verenigde Staten
Local time: 00:45
Russisch naar Engels
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| I am not really sure, if you could tell sometimes | Jul 15, 2012 |
whether somebody's English, whose mother spoke Spanish, let's say, even though the child was born in the United States, had native or non-native traces. There are so many varieties of American English -- some people speak their parents' language at home, and only English in school. I doubt you could really tell some immigrants' children's language, who love certain types of slang, just like their 4th generation peers, whether it was native or non-native, and what do you mean by native after all?... See more whether somebody's English, whose mother spoke Spanish, let's say, even though the child was born in the United States, had native or non-native traces. There are so many varieties of American English -- some people speak their parents' language at home, and only English in school. I doubt you could really tell some immigrants' children's language, who love certain types of slang, just like their 4th generation peers, whether it was native or non-native, and what do you mean by native after all? How would this really matter, if you could not write anything for translation purposes in any other type of English than standard, grammatically correct English. I could not tell whether some Polish people, especially from the mountains, were speaking Polish which was influenced by Slovak, or Slovak with some Polish words, or still another Slavic language. How could you? People don't speak in real life like the Hollywood movie characters. Do you really think real Scottish English would be accepted by a London publishing house, if the translator decided to use it?
If it doesn't really matter if someone speaks and writes in Irish English, Scottish English, any type of slang, rap slang included, why would it matter if a professor, from Brazil, let's say, who wrote in almost perfect English, translated scientific materials into English?
I know you had in mind the people with very low language competence in the beginning, but the thread turned into something that defies logic.
[Edited at 2012-07-15 10:12 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Samuel Murray
Nederland
Local time: 06:45
Lid 2006
Engels naar Afrikaans
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| Not Edinburgh | Jul 15, 2012 |
Lisa Simpson, MCIL wrote: LilianBoland wrote:
Do you consider people who live in Edinburgh or Dublin native speakers of English? I must say I'm not sure why I'm dignifying this with a response but just for the record, the answer is "Yes". The question wouldn't even cross my mind.
Well, Edinburgh is perhaps a poor example, since most people who live in Edinburgh are either tourists or working in the tourism industry. Try Glasgow instead.
Or, perhaps the question should be different: are the Glaswegians native speakers of English or native speakers of Scots (or both)?
I don't know enough about the situation in Spain, but since you're a translator in those languages, perhaps you can tell us: do children there who live in a region where a dialect is mainly spoken speak both the dialect and mainstream Spanish in the first 5 years of their life? If not, would they be regarded as native speakers of their dialect and of mainstream Spanish, or only of their dialect? Sorry if my terminology isn't 100% right -- as I had said, I'm not familiar with the exact situation in Spain, although I do recall that there are some dialects there.
[Edited at 2012-07-15 10:02 GMT]
| | | | | Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: empty post |
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| Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: empty post | | Dialects ?? No !!! | Jul 15, 2012 |
1) In Spain, there are 3 languages (not "dialects"!!): 2 official and 1 which would like to become official :
The 2 official : Castellano (what is called "Spanish" in the rest of the world) and Catalan
The non-official: Vasco.
2) I'd like to know how you would consider a person born, grown-up, etc., in countries with several official "native" languages, e.g. Switzerland (German, Romand [French] and Italian),
Canada, Belgium, etc.
3) I think t... See more 1) In Spain, there are 3 languages (not "dialects"!!): 2 official and 1 which would like to become official :
The 2 official : Castellano (what is called "Spanish" in the rest of the world) and Catalan
The non-official: Vasco.
2) I'd like to know how you would consider a person born, grown-up, etc., in countries with several official "native" languages, e.g. Switzerland (German, Romand [French] and Italian),
Canada, Belgium, etc.
3) I think this thread is getting too "personal" with unpleasant remarks.
Have a great Sunday
Catherine ▲ Collapse
| | | | LilianNekipelov
Verenigde Staten
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| I don't think Ty, Chomsky wrote anything about German Shepherds | Jul 15, 2012 |
Yes, these are urban legends, that a child is born with L1. I would never imagine Chomsky could support anything like that. Where did you get it from that this was his idea? It is absolutely not his idea. He believed in universal language competence, not competence of a particular language. A child is born with universal language competence, or rather a potential for developing language -- unless he has changed his ideas over the last week.
| | | | Ty Kendall
Verenigd Koninkrijk
Local time: 05:45
Hebreeuws naar Engels
Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:
1) In Spain, there are 3 languages (not "dialects"!!): 2 official and 1 which would like to become official :
The 2 official : Castellano (what is called "Spanish" in the rest of the world) and Catalan
The non-official: Vasco.
2) I'd like to know how you would consider a person born, grown-up, etc., in countries with several official "native" languages, e.g. Switzerland (German, Romand [French] and Italian),
Canada, Belgium, etc.
3) I think this thread is getting too "personal" with unpleasant remarks.
Have a great Sunday
Catherine
I disagree it's becoming personal. Some posters do repeatedly refer to others by name, which is unnessary but other than that people are just responding to what is being spouted.
Anyway, Spain does have 3 languages (at least) - depends on how you draw the line between what is a language and what is a dialect - a very tricky subject, under some definitions, Galician could be considered a separate language too.
However, Spain also has dialects. The way Castellano is spoken in Madrid is different, however slightly, to that Castellano spoken in Malaga.
[Edited at 2012-07-15 10:27 GMT]
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Ty Kendall
Verenigd Koninkrijk
Local time: 05:45
Hebreeuws naar Engels
| Who wants to tell Chomsky he's an idiot? | Jul 15, 2012 |
These are just some urban legends people want to believe in, just like that children are born with their L1, just a baby version
With respect, I think this represents a confusion of Chomskyan linguistics.
| | | | | Administratively speaking | Jul 15, 2012 |
[quote]Ty Kendall wrote:
Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:
1) In Spain, there are 3 languages (not "dialects"!!): 2 official and 1 which would like to become official :
The 2 official : Castellano (what is called "Spanish" in the rest of the world) and Catalan
The non-official: Vasco.
2) I'd like to know how you would consider a person born, grown-up, etc., in countries with several official "native" languages, e.g. Switzerland (German, Romand [French] and Italian),
Canada, Belgium, etc.
3) I think this thread is getting too "personal" with unpleasant remarks.
Have a great Sunday
Catherine
I disagree it's becoming personal. Some posters do repeatedly refer to others by name, which is unnessary but other than that people are just responding to what is being spouted.
It is the part in bold that I don't appreciate, I mean this type of behaviour.
Anyway, Spain does have 3 languages (at least) - depends on how you draw the line between what is a language and what is a dialect - a very tricky subject, under some definitions, Galician could be considered a separate language too. )
You are right for Galician, I forgot it. My apologies to all Galician colleagues. So we have 3 official languages + 1 non-official (Vasco).
Galician is recognized as "co-official" with Castellano.
I draw the line between languages and dialects at the same level than the administrative authorities of the concerned country do it. Otherwise, it becomes far too tricky for the purposes of this thread.
However, Spain also has dialects. The way Castellano is spoken in Madrid is different, however slightly, to that Castellano spoken in Malaga.
As in any country in the world
Catherine
| | | | Samuel Murray
Nederland
Local time: 06:45
Lid 2006
Engels naar Afrikaans
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| Dialects matters (my post #80 in this thread) | Jul 15, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote: Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote:
In Spain, there are 3 languages (not "dialects"!!): 2 official and 1 which would like to become official: The 2 official : Castellano (what is called "Spanish" in the rest of the world) and Catalan; The non-official: Vasco. Spain does have 3 languages (at least) - depends on how you draw the line between what is a language and what is a dialect - a very tricky subject, under some definitions, Galician could be considered a separate language too. ... However, Spain also has dialects. The way Castellano is spoken in Madrid is different, however slightly, to that Castellano spoken in Malaga.
Well, whether dialects is relevant to a discussion of native language depends on your definition of "native language", but for the past few posts I gather we all assume it means "language of the critical period", i.e. spoken/heard in first 5 years of one's life. Right?
The reason why dialects is important to this discussion relates to the assumed advantages that a native speaker would have. He would be able to tell whether a word is the wrong register. He would be less likely to use non-native grammar or sentence construction. His language logic would be closer to those of the average native speaker. Etc.
The problem with dialects is that in some langauges the dialects are truly different from the mainstream dialect. I suppose there are languages in which the "dialects" are no more than region variants, in which the core grammar, sentence construction and language logic is the same as the mainstream dialect. My closest point of reference is Dutch (since I live in a Dutch country). My understanding of Dutch dialects is that the grammar and sentence construction and langauge logics and register of specific words are often quite different from the mainstream, "standard" Dutch (and I'm not talking about Frisian here, but about "Dutch" Dutch dialects). In fact, I often meet adult speakers who are all but incapable of using standard Dutch. They would be regarded as native speakers of Dutch, but that would be of little use in any situation where a native speaker is expected for the purpose of telling a native element from a non-native element.
In one study of Dutch dialects, the Afrikaans language was included in the comparison, and it was found that Afrikaans is "closer" to standard Dutch than quite a number of the dialects. If speakers of those dialects are "native Dutch", then I guess I would have to be native Dutch too though any Dutch translator would consider me a liar if I were to claim that, and I would not pass any native language test in it.
Catherine GUILLIAUMET wrote: Ty Kendall wrote:
However, Spain also has dialects. The way Castellano is spoken in Madrid is different, however slightly, to that Castellano spoken in Malaga. As in any country in the world...
No, actually in some countries and languages, the language is so well standardised that there are no dialects and practically no city or regional variation (Afrikaans in South Africa is one example). When I say "dialect" I mean something that is radically different at the grammar level, not merely regional variations.
[Edited at 2012-07-15 10:57 GMT]
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