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A virtual cooperative?
Thread poster: Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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What if the customer needs to ask something? Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
The question is to force the client do things our way, that is how travel air companies did it.
You can post online the CV, phone number and photography of the translator and the revisor in charge of a project. And that automatically. It is possible. Everything is possible. Good idea, thank you Jabberwock.


But Felipe, you are forgetting an important fact: a translation request is very far from being a commodity, a well-defined product. A customer needs to ask things almost every day, needs to give us instructions, needs to confirm that we understand the instructions... and from the other side, translators always have to ask things, confirm details, report translation decisions, request more files or reference materials.... You want to do all that without a direct communication channel to the customer?


 
Francesca Pesce
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A concrete experience in cooperation Sep 10, 2008

Together with other colleagues, I created a translation cooperative in 1992.

In Italy, according to Italian law.

First: cooperatives ARE companies. But they are a more democratic way of doing business.

Second: being more democratic, they are more difficult to run and manage.

In our case, it was easier than the idea you have: we knew each other and knew how we worked. Instead, getting together people that don't know each other is much more c
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Together with other colleagues, I created a translation cooperative in 1992.

In Italy, according to Italian law.

First: cooperatives ARE companies. But they are a more democratic way of doing business.

Second: being more democratic, they are more difficult to run and manage.

In our case, it was easier than the idea you have: we knew each other and knew how we worked. Instead, getting together people that don't know each other is much more complicated. This is because personal reputation is somehow at risk if one ties one's work and reputation to someone else's.

The democracy of a cooperative is in the fact that the workers (in this case, freelancers) choose who should take care of the management, what to do with the profits, and decide on the basic rules and values of the company. But, in concrete, it is always some kind of Board of Administrators that is responsible for the management. And the bigger the cooperative the less real control the single freelancer actually has.

We decided to create a cooperative to avoid being exploited by the market: being a company means that you are the ones that impose the rules (rates, terms of payment, etc.), so it is easier especially when you are just starting off. So obviously for us the first rule was - and still is - that the priority are the freelancers partners of the cooperative, but also external translators to whom we outsource other work. The cooperative's first rule is not to exploit workers to make a profit. The aim of the cooperative is not making money or profits, but finding work for its members at the best conditions possible.
The margin of the cooperative is kept at a minimum: the amount necessary for operating expenses (very low) and investment in marketing or working instruments.

But I can imagine that legislation in other countries can permit also more unethical behaviour.

An organisation in which no-one has precise responsibilities is, according to my experience, impossible to run. If no-one has responsibilities, no-one is liable to the others for what he/she does.
A cooperative means that somewhere you need to have an office, a secretary, someone who takes care of the accounting, issues invoices, takes care of payments and tax returns, etc. A totally virtual company - be it cooperative or not - is a non existing entity.

Someone, somewhere, has to decide how to allocate work between translators, what rates to ask, etc. You cannot have a generaly assembly to decide all this. You cannot simply decide collectively on every single matter. And petty issues are in the end the most important.

So forget the idea that a cooperative is an organisation of the "everyone runs it" type, as Tomàs says. It is a company in which the partners decide to delegate the management to a restricted group, that is responsible towards all the partners and must follow the rules decided in a general assembly. And, foremost, a cooperative differs from normal companies in its objective: not making profits like a normal company, but achieving work and better working standards for its members. At least according to Italian legislation.
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Jaroslaw Michalak
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Poland
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What happens in the hole? Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Have you ever bought a plane travel ticket online? You did not know if the plane already existed. You even didn´t know the name of the pilot. You are really gullible, why have you pay with your credit card such service? It must work only with email and phone, of course.

The question is to force the client do things our way, that is how travel air companies did it.
You can post online the CV, phone number and photography of the translator and the revisor in charge of a project. And that automatically. It is possible. Everything is possible. Good idea, thank you Jabberwock.


I know that this is how you imagined it, I just described it. But you did not answer my question: The files of our client are on the cooperative server... The client might specify how much it should cost and when they expect it, but they might not: they do not have to know anything about translation at all! Who gets to see the files? Who prepares the quote (this might be quite time consuming, as files need to be converted, TMs created etc.)? Finally, is the quote only posted on the website so that the client might see it when he wants?


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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TEAM work Sep 10, 2008

About "everybody runs it"..... I remember the meaning of TEAM: "Toll Ein Anderer Macht's!" (Great, someone else does it!).

 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
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This is good, Tomas, TEAM Sep 10, 2008

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:

About "everybody runs it"..... I remember the meaning of TEAM: "Toll Ein Anderer Macht's!" (Great, someone else does it!).

But again, gives negative feeling somehow...


 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
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Some examples of virtual companies... Sep 10, 2008

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/08/09/0908_2008_entrepreneurs/3.htm

 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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Confusing terms? Sep 10, 2008



Felipe, is it possible that you are confusing "virtual cooperatives" with "online companies"?


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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Everyone runs it....give it a try! Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
About "everybody runs it"..... I remember the meaning of TEAM: "Toll Ein Anderer Macht's!" (Great, someone else does it!).

But again, gives negative feeling somehow...


Sorry about that. Felipe, I can sincerely recommend that you try to do any task in a cooperative, "everyone runs it" approach. Why don't you look for something that has to be done in your community, like voluntary things to improve well-being of your community and environment over there, and try to do it cooperatively, with a shared responsability so that everyone who sees a need to take action does it, without waiting for a manager to ask for it?

After you have done this for some months, please email me and remind me of this posting. We will then discuss the nature of human beings, the need for management or no need for management, the need for precise tasks and responsabilities or no need for them...

I see some potential that you haven't tried such an experience before, and you therefore lack fundamental knowledge about mankind: we can be both miserable and great. When we are great.... then great. When we are miserable... we better call it quits.


 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
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What about MCC? Sep 10, 2008

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
About "everybody runs it"..... I remember the meaning of TEAM: "Toll Ein Anderer Macht's!" (Great, someone else does it!).

But again, gives negative feeling somehow...


Sorry about that. Felipe, I can sincerely recommend that you try to do any task in a cooperative, "everyone runs it" approach. Why don't you look for something that has to be done in your community, like voluntary things to improve well-being of your community and environment over there, and try to do it cooperatively, with a shared responsability so that everyone who sees a need to take action does it, without waiting for a manager to ask for it?

After you have done this for some months, please email me and remind me of this posting. We will then discuss the nature of human beings, the need for management or no need for management, the need for precise tasks and responsabilities or no need for them...

I see some potential that you haven't tried such an experience before, and you therefore lack fundamental knowledge about mankind: we can be both miserable and great. When we are great.... then great. When we are miserable... we better call it quits.


It works? or not? www.mcc.es
And there must be many more examples out there, we just don´t know them.
It can work.


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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Big cooperatives Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
It works? or not? www.mcc.es
And there must be many more examples out there, we just don´t know them.
It can work.


Yes, another cooperative is Eroski for instance. A friend of mine works there. After being an employee for many years, he was recently granted the right to be a member of the cooperative and owns some shares. But do you think he has any ability to decide about the big decisions of the firm? None at all. A managerial group rules and decides everything. They could perfectly be a Sociedad Anónima and give shares or stock options to employees.


 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
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Eroski is part of mcc, just for info Sep 10, 2008

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
It works? or not? www.mcc.es
And there must be many more examples out there, we just don´t know them.
It can work.


Yes, another cooperative is Eroski for instance. A friend of mine works there. After being an employee for many years, he was recently granted the right to be a member of the cooperative and owns some shares. But do you think he has any ability to decide about the big decisions of the firm? None at all. A managerial group rules and decides everything. They could perfectly be a Sociedad Anónima and give shares or stock options to employees.


They could, but they are not. It worked. In 1953 they were four people cooperating.


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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There is your way to go! Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:
Yes, another cooperative is Eroski for instance. A friend of mine works there. After being an employee for many years, he was recently granted the right to be a member of the cooperative and owns some shares. But do you think he has any ability to decide about the big decisions of the firm? None at all. A managerial group rules and decides everything. They could perfectly be a Sociedad Anónima and give shares or stock options to employees.

They could, but they are not. It worked. In 1953 they were four people cooperating.


Then there is the way to go Felipe! You should talk to them and ask them for their formula of success. However, I still think that translations are a bit different from making washing machines or selling food...


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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Any comments on Francesca's real-world experence? Sep 10, 2008

Francesca Pesce wrote:
Together with other colleagues, I created a translation cooperative in 1992.


Felipe, what is your impression about Francesca's experience?


 
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Felipe Gútiez Velasco
Germany
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Very interested indeed, thank you very much Francesca Sep 10, 2008

Tomás Cano Binder wrote:

Francesca Pesce wrote:
Together with other colleagues, I created a translation cooperative in 1992.


Felipe, what is your impression about Francesca's experience?


It is a small company with very specific goals, just to facilitate the work for freelancers.
Very interesting.
But it is not designed as online solution. I even try to see the website of Francesca looking for it in google and unfortunately I could not find it. Francesca, is it possible that you send me your URL to my private addresss? [email protected]
Thanks in advance


[Editado a las 2008-09-10 15:20]

[Editado a las 2008-09-11 06:08]


 
Tomás Cano Binder, BA, CT
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Nothing different from an online experience Sep 10, 2008

Felipe Gútiez wrote:
Francesca Pesce wrote:
Together with other colleagues, I created a translation cooperative in 1992.

It is a small company with very specific goals, just to facilitate the work for freelancers.
Very interesting.
But it is not designed as online solution. I even try to see the website and could not find it.


I think you might be confusing the structure with the production means. A cooperative must have goals, structures, definitions, location, legal form, office-management team, etc. etc., both if you sell potatoes and if you offer services on-line.

The on-line presence of any service must have a backbone supporting it. The presence and front-end might be on-line, but there must be something supporting it. All on-line services and companies selling anything have a physical organisation and a legal form.

If you don't sell anything, you can be as "virtual" as you like, as you won't have to deal with accountancy, taxes, management, etc. But I reckon you want to make money with the cooperative? Then... learn from what Francesca is explaining to you. That is free and good advice and information.


 
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