| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Relation between volume of work and rate Thread poster: Jocelin Meunier
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| Don't underestimate the extra PM work in larger projects | Jul 21, 2019 |
jyuan_us wrote:
The rationale is that you will need less time in project management. If you want to compare a job that pays $10, 000 with 20 jobs, each of which pays $500, the difference in project management time will be substantial.
Also, your will be less competitive if you are not willing to give volume discounts, because larger jobs do attract more translators
[Edited at 2019-07-20 18:08 GMT]
If I have one job that pays $10.000, I actually have extra project management work: I'll want to negotiate partial deliveries and partial payments to avoid an unacceptable risk of non-payment. I'll also have to negotiate a schedule that allows me to still work for other clients. Otherwise I'm putting all my eggs in one basket, which would be another unacceptable risk. Usuallly though, clients who want to get a $10.000 job done with a discount tend to offer deadlines that imply exclusivity or death by overtime work. I would imagine that the negotiations wouldn't be very easy.
This type of negotiation is project-specific, so I don't have a template. And I'll be working on one type of job for an extended period of time, not adding new skills and insights after the initial research phase.
On the other hand, if I have 20 jobs that pay $500, they are likely to all be rather standard in terms of PM work - and if it's standard, it tends to be either automated or a quick routine. There's not much time-consuming non-standard negotiation going on, payments and risks are spread by default. Nothing that keeps me up at night, nothing to distract me from doing actual translation work.
Also I'm getting into new stuff more often, which will increase my value proposition to clients in the long term.
| | | | jyuan_us 
United States
Local time: 02:18
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
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Removed
[Edited at 2019-07-21 18:15 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 02:18
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
Susan van den Ende wrote:
If I have one job that pays $10.000, I actually have extra project management work: I'll want to negotiate partial deliveries and partial payments to avoid an unacceptable risk of non-payment. I'll also have to negotiate a schedule that allows me to still work for other clients. Otherwise I'm putting all my eggs in one basket, which would be another unacceptable risk. Usuallly though, clients who want to get a $10.000 job done with a discount tend to offer deadlines that imply exclusivity or death by overtime work. I would imagine that the negotiations wouldn't be very easy.
There could be large jobs from established clients that don't require any project management, which takes 5 minutes for you to review and accept, and which requires one delivery and one invoice. You don't need to manage anything in between. In this case, a discount would make sense. And if you want to take any job that has a deadline that implies exclusivity or death by overtime work, it is your choice. There are large jobs that are not so demanding, for which a volume discount might be justifiable. You will never have to accept any job, long or short, with or without discounts. All business is circumstance-dependent. Again, you are the one to make the choice.
[Edited at 2019-07-21 18:36 GMT]
[Edited at 2019-07-21 18:38 GMT]
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 02:18
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| In fast/busy months, you don't have to give a volume discount. You can charge more, instead. | Jul 21, 2019 |
but in a month where business is slow, if you reject a job that requires a volume discount, you may end up having nothing to do. Of course, an established translator may never have a month that is very slow in business.
[Edited at 2019-07-21 18:16 GMT]
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jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 02:18
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| I have rarely given volume discount myself, | Jul 21, 2019 |
because jobs that are large enough to justify a volume discount have rarely been offered to me so far.
[Edited at 2019-07-21 18:23 GMT]
| | | | Adam Warren
France
Local time: 08:18
Member (2005)
French to English
| Don't accept workhouse/pauper rates | Jul 21, 2019 |
Jocelin Meunier wrote:
a rate of 0.03 USD with mentioned right after that there will be "a big volume of words".
[paid] less for doing overtime, is it accepted? Is it considered ok uunder certain conditions (like a real rate) or am I just being super dismissive?
The SFT, a FIT member body, says that accepting low rates and skin-scorching dealines is "casser le marché", i. e. paving the way to a slump in rates and an erosion of working conditions. A client's promises often prove to be fair words that butter no parsnips. I hope this will bolster your resolve to stand firm, and hold out for economic rates, as well as humane working conditions.
| | | | Jocelin Meunier
France
Local time: 08:18
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
IanDhu wrote: I hope this will bolster your resolve to stand firm, and hold out for economic rates, as well as humane working conditions.
To be honest, I just have too much ego to accept such a proposition. I didn't go through years of studies, volunteer translations for NGOs and a whole lot of painful experiences just to accept rates that can't even pay the rent.
Even with the decline in work we see, I prefer to train on other things/look for better clients instead of telling those guys, "Oh yeah, sure, you can totally spit on my face. I would do anything to get underpaid.".
I'm just afraid that they are the only ones left, though, since that's all I'm seeing lately...
| | | | Lincoln Hui
Hong Kong
Local time: 14:18
Member
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Volume discount vs low rates | Jul 22, 2019 |
Because some people seem to be confused, the agency offering you $0.03/word has nothing to do with volume discounts. They're not going to suddenly offer you 3, 4 times that rate for small jobs. Meanwhile, charging 0.09 instead of 0.10 is also a volume discount.
As for people who use that ridiculous supermarket analogy - yeah, if I'm buying $10,000 USD worth of groceries, a lot of supermarkets are going to give me a discount. If you think you're a supermarket, then by scale the custo... See more Because some people seem to be confused, the agency offering you $0.03/word has nothing to do with volume discounts. They're not going to suddenly offer you 3, 4 times that rate for small jobs. Meanwhile, charging 0.09 instead of 0.10 is also a volume discount.
As for people who use that ridiculous supermarket analogy - yeah, if I'm buying $10,000 USD worth of groceries, a lot of supermarkets are going to give me a discount. If you think you're a supermarket, then by scale the customer is probably Fortune 500. ▲ Collapse
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| Job security | Jul 22, 2019 |
Jocelin Meunier wrote:
Hello everyone,
I have recently been offered to work on a big project (or so it seems anyway) for a rate of 0.03 USD with mentioned right after that there will be "a big volume of words".
It is not the first time that I see this as an excuse to pay translators less, but I was wondering how other professionals felt about that. To me it's like proposing to get paid less for doing overtime, but since I am seeing this here and there, is it accepted? Is it considered ok uunder certain conditions (like a real rate) or am I just being super dismissive?
Looking forward to see what you think.
I think there is some kind of argument that if a client is expecting to send a lot of regular work, this gives you something akin to job security: you can rely on ~$X of work per month. You might choose to accept a slightly lower rate in exchange for this "security" (to the extent you consider it "security").
There may also be an argument that if you do a lot of work on the same project or related projects for the same client, you will become familiar with their phrasing and terminology, and thus faster, and so you might consider offering a small volume discount (this might depend on your field -- more likely to be feasible for e.g. industrial machinery operating manuals than tourism websites).
So I don't think there's a need to entirely dismiss volume discounts. However, in either case, the discount would typically be something like 10% of your usual rate. 0.03USD is a long way from any professional rate.
| | | | jyuan_us
United States
Local time: 02:18
Member (2005)
English to Chinese
+ ...
| That is exactly what I was thinking about | Jul 22, 2019 |
Lincoln Hui wrote:
Because some people seem to be confused, the agency offering you $0.03/word has nothing to do with volume discounts. They're not going to suddenly offer you 3, 4 times that rate for small jobs. Meanwhile, charging 0.09 instead of 0.10 is also a volume discount.
As for people who use that ridiculous supermarket analogy - yeah, if I'm buying $10,000 USD worth of groceries, a lot of supermarkets are going to give me a discount. If you think you're a supermarket, then by scale the customer is probably Fortune 500.
And I was about to post a comment similar to yours.
| | | | LIZ LI
China
Local time: 14:18
French to Chinese
+ ...
| Contradiction | Jul 23, 2019 |
Mair A-W (PhD) wrote:
So I don't think there's a need to entirely dismiss volume discounts.
Fully agree on this conclusion.
As admit it or not, giving discount is actually an ordinary exercise practiced by the whole universe of business, yet every single entity is free to go for it, or not.
However, lots of studies in consumer behavior tell us that once it's done, people shall psychologically call for discount every single time.
And contradictory enough, it's not a good way to keep your clients loyal, as they realize that you may be charging less in some circumstances and they're normally paying you MORE.
I am still playing the tactic that I learned from another thread at proz forum some time ago, that to keep the original rate, instead of applying for a lately growth, is my best DISCOUNT to give away.
I tried it several times and it worked out pretty well for me.
[Edited at 2019-07-23 00:53 GMT]
[Edited at 2019-07-23 00:54 GMT]
| | | | | discounts make no sense because | Jul 23, 2019 |
Translation is customized work from beginning to end: each word must be translated as carefully. When a factory produces bottles of ketchup, there is a first overhead in setting it all up, and then the bottles get churned out. I have the same amount of work whether it is for 20 customers or 1 customer. There is more security to a broad customer base, and it also makes no sense to turn down work for better paying customers, because you are tied up doing massive work for a customer expecting a ... See more Translation is customized work from beginning to end: each word must be translated as carefully. When a factory produces bottles of ketchup, there is a first overhead in setting it all up, and then the bottles get churned out. I have the same amount of work whether it is for 20 customers or 1 customer. There is more security to a broad customer base, and it also makes no sense to turn down work for better paying customers, because you are tied up doing massive work for a customer expecting a major discount.
I sometimes get messages from companies offering me large volumes of regular work, and they offer it as if were a special treat. They usually also want to pay substantially lower than what I charge. I think this plays to the feeling of insecurity when one is used to employment and a regular, predictable pay cheque. If you freelance, you have embraced both freedom and risk, and timidly putting all one's eggs in one poorly woven basket is not such a good idea. ▲ Collapse
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Adam Warren
France
Local time: 08:18
Member (2005)
French to English
| Paying with promises | Jul 25, 2019 |
Michael Newton wrote:
"give us your best rate based on long-term cooperation".
Colleagues would be well advised to ignore specious blandishments of this kind. Clients who make insubstantial offers like this should not be given the time of day.
| | | | Jocelin Meunier
France
Local time: 08:18
English to French
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
[quote]IanDhu wrote:
Michael Newton wrote:
"give us your best rate".
I've always had some problems with this particular sentence since I'm in the translation business. They need our expertise, our knowledge and skills so shouldn't they propose -their best- rate instead? And "long-term" wouldn't mean that your rate should increase over time, instead?
A lot of time I have found that asking "If I was an employee, would this be okay?" showed who to avoid. In the case of "give us your best rate", if I were to postulate to be an employee, that would be like the recruiter asking me "tell me how much we can underpay you".
I know it's a sentence almost every client/agency use so I don't dismiss them right away, but when it's used with "based on long-term cooperation", "discount on matches" or any other excuse to pay us less, I know they're a bad client/agency.
| | | | | the "best rate" wording | Jul 26, 2019 |
With many it seems to have just become an empty phrase, like "How are you?" in a greeting, when you're not really curious how a stranger you meet is feeling, or "Have a great day." because an employer tells their clerks they have to say that to every customer as they walk out. I have one regular client where some of the PMs seem to use that formula. I simply give them my calculated fee for the project at hand. It's like, "How are you?" "Fine, thank you." (whether or not you are, at that momen... See more With many it seems to have just become an empty phrase, like "How are you?" in a greeting, when you're not really curious how a stranger you meet is feeling, or "Have a great day." because an employer tells their clerks they have to say that to every customer as they walk out. I have one regular client where some of the PMs seem to use that formula. I simply give them my calculated fee for the project at hand. It's like, "How are you?" "Fine, thank you." (whether or not you are, at that moment, fine.) ▲ Collapse
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