| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | To Plus or not to Plus? Thread poster: Roy Williams
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Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| MistressMind | Apr 26, 2019 |
Sheila Wilson wrote: ....what it says on the ProZ.com page about the benefits of the "Plus" package: Membership in Translation Mastermind, a private translator and interpreter community dedicated to meeting end clients
I would not sign up for Translation Mastermind (copyrighted by Andrew Morris) unless I had prior access to reviews by users (and the Translation Mastermind "reviews" section is empty- as is the "Blog" section).
https://translationmastermind.com/
What extra marvels can it possibly offer in addition to Proz itself?
Can anyone who actually uses it enlighten me?
[Edited at 2019-04-26 16:07 GMT]
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DZiW wrote:
I believe most plus-members pay extra $200 exactly for a higher rank at the ProZ non-members→[verified]→members→plus-members→enterprise list, moving in their language pair, say, from #1000 as non-member to #300 as a "paying" member and #250 as a big plus-member.
Come again?
| | | | | Translation Mastermind | Apr 26, 2019 |
Tom in London wrote: I would not sign up for Translation Mastermind (copyrighted by Andrew Morris) unless I had prior access to reviews by users (and the Translation Mastermind "reviews" section is empty- as is the "Blog" section). https://translationmastermind.com/ What extra marvels can it possibly offer in addition to Proz itself? Can anyone who actually uses it enlighten me? [Edited at 2019-04-26 16:07 GMT]
My dearest Tom
After running the Translation Mastermind for well over two years, including daily interaction with nearly 1,000 people in there, I have a pretty good idea of the sort of people who fit in and those who don't.
So if I were you, I'd avoid wasting your time, reviews or no reviews.
It's most definitely not for you.
PS thanks for the reminder about those reviews. Will get on to it.
***
Disclaimer 1: the above message is not meant to insult, insinuate, aggress or belittle. It's just a fact.
Disclaimer 2: The hat I'm wearing today is the group owner's hat. ProZ.com have generously sponsored the group, from its earliest days, but it belongs to me.
Disclaimer 3: I said this morning I would go away and take some time to reflect. I have – all day. Then had a long friendly chat with Henry, and read his message of support on the other thread.* And now I'm back.
* For reference: https://www.proz.com/forum/site_forums/334241-role_of_site_staff-page6.html
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
Member (2008)
Italian to English
OK so Translation MistressMind is not a good reason for paying more to get the "Plus" package.
However apart from Andrew's remarks, and as a matter of interest, I would still welcome opinions from anyone else (i.e. ***not Andrew***) of the thousands of people who apparently use TMM and who can respond to my question (which Andrew didn't address):
Precisely *what* extras does TMM offer in addition to what the Proz package already offers? (Please, not just general statem... See more OK so Translation MistressMind is not a good reason for paying more to get the "Plus" package.
However apart from Andrew's remarks, and as a matter of interest, I would still welcome opinions from anyone else (i.e. ***not Andrew***) of the thousands of people who apparently use TMM and who can respond to my question (which Andrew didn't address):
Precisely *what* extras does TMM offer in addition to what the Proz package already offers? (Please, not just general statements about how great TMM is).
[Edited at 2019-04-27 09:18 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Tom in London wrote:
OK so Translation MistressMind is not a good reason for paying more to get the "Plus" package.
That's right. Not for you. But for many others, absolutely.
In fact, the phrase "It's not for you" (for which I am indebted to Seth Godin) is true for many, many people. There is no restaurant, musician (not even Jimi Hendrix in a bedroom), political party, architectural style or international cuisine in the world that appeals to everyone. And that's as it should be. Most of the people in the Translation Mastermind (sic) love the atmosphere of learning and collegiality. Others are totally indifferent. Some may even be hostile, and leave. That's also fine.
I'll take the opportunity you've kindly given me to expand a little, and thus answer your question more fully.
It’s true that I am not “not Andrew”. I am sadly unable to resolve that existential conundrum. I would however respectfully point out that we do not, in a public forum, get to choose our interlocutors. As I have found out to my cost.
So....
In the group, I don't teach in any meaningful sense of the word. I wouldn't presume, with 1,000 people and many millennia of shared experience between them, compared to my mere decade. What I have done is created a conflict-free community, broadly based on the educational theory known as social constructivism*, in which people feel safe to share with and learn from each other.
And where do I get said educational theory from? Well, from a twenty-year career in education, first as a teacher, then following a Master's, as a teacher trainer, a trainer trainer, and ultimately head of the national training programme for the Ministry of Education in Bangladesh. But I was not happy as a glorified bureaucrat, which is why I jumped ship to become a translator.
However, although I abandoned a long career, I held on to the adult education principles I had learned along the way.
So within the group, I ask questions and they share their knowledge, on all kinds of issues. And of course they raise issues of their own in the many posts that pop up every day.
We enjoy puns and wordplay. We don't take ourselves too seriously. But we are all committed professionals who appreciate our clients and see ourselves as broadly in control of our own outcomes in work and life.
We tend to avoid the technical (CAT Tools, etc) as there are plenty of places devoted to that. We do however focus on getting better at our craft, and adopting the mindset of successful freelancing. What's more, we see freelance life in the round: it's not just you, your text and your keyboard, but your entire approach, your kids, your health, your finances etc.
Finally, and crucially, we both address problems and celebrate success. The latter is generally lacking in doom-laden translator talk online.
I hope that gives other readers of this thread a fair overview. They will then judge for themselves whether or not it adds anything to the ProZ.com offering.
Unlike you, I make no claims about the group's quality. I merely point to the fact that people who are members, whether paying or Plus, stay year after year and have formed solid professional friendships. Moreover, they often report to me, both privately and publicly, that the group has totally changed their working lives, including their bottom line.
Those who left, on the other hand, or who never engaged with the group in the spirit in which it was intended, may tell you it is utterly useless. To which I would of course reply: “It’s not for them.”
However, having said all that, the benefits of Plus** go way beyond my little patch of Facebook. There are, for example, many Plus members who have not chosen to join – as is their right, for whatever reason – but no doubt benefit from the wide range of other features within the package.
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_constructivism
** http://www.proz.com/about-plus-package
Disclaimers: see 1 & 2 in previous comment above.
| | | | | Translation Mastermind | Apr 27, 2019 |
No substance.
Personally, I found it a waste of time. Basically, it's a place for "Facebook"-type people who like to advertise themselves and chatter about nothing in particular. Not much to learn in terms of anything.
Usually, Facebook groups have some common interest and subjects to discuss.
This one has none.
Just my personal opinion.
I don't think I'll extend my Plus package, unless it offers some benefits. Translation Mastermind is not one of them.
... See more No substance.
Personally, I found it a waste of time. Basically, it's a place for "Facebook"-type people who like to advertise themselves and chatter about nothing in particular. Not much to learn in terms of anything.
Usually, Facebook groups have some common interest and subjects to discuss.
This one has none.
Just my personal opinion.
I don't think I'll extend my Plus package, unless it offers some benefits. Translation Mastermind is not one of them.
Best,
Sandra ▲ Collapse
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Thanks for your comment Sandra (and Kenneth?)
It’s not for you.
Or maybe we’ve all got it wrong!
I note en passant that I have never seen your name before, suggesting that you made zero effort to contribute or shape the group to your needs through posts, comments or input of any sort whatsoever.
That does not invalidate your feedback in the slightest, but it does add a little context.
| | | | Anne Carnot 
France
Local time: 21:02
Member (2009)
English to French
| Tranlsation Mastermind | Apr 27, 2019 |
Andrew Morris wrote:
So within the group, I ask questions and they share their knowledge, on all kinds of issues. And of course they raise issues of their own in the many posts that pop up every day.
We enjoy puns and wordplay. We don't take ourselves too seriously. But we are all committed professionals who appreciate our clients and see ourselves as broadly in control of our own outcomes in work and life.
We tend to avoid the technical (CAT Tools, etc) as there are plenty of places devoted to that. We do however focus on getting better at our craft, and adopting the mindset of successful freelancing. What's more, we see freelance life in the round: it's not just you, your text and your keyboard, but your entire approach, your kids, your health, your finances etc.
All of this. Plus more Coming from a "not-Andrew" type of person. It's a safe place where translators can exchange views, advice, experience. There is a cluster of regular contributors who really know what they're talking about, are quite inspiring. But in the end, you decide what you want from the group, where it can take you. I'm rather shy, most of my clients found me, not the other way round. But with the various tools/attitudes discussed in TM, Andrew's mindset videos, and the examples given by more extrovert members, I'm changing that, doing things I didn't think I could do before, and gaining some direct clients whose rates are sometimes much higher than what I was used to, with projects that suit me.
So if you're looking for a fool proof method that will tell you in much details how to get from point A to point B in your career, then you will be disappointed. But if you're looking for a community that will change your mindset, empower you to make the changes you need to thrive in your job, then it's worth giving it a try, and observe for a few weeks to get a good picture.
As for me, I really like the atmosphere there. As Andrew says, people don't take themselves too seriously, some of them are really good with words and funny (I’m not a native in English, and all the puns and wordplays did wonder to expand my vocabulary!), it's both relaxed and professional. And more importantly, there is no conflict, no aggressiveness. And that's quite rare in most groups/professional forums... I used to go on the ProZ forums when I first started freelancing, and I did get a lot of information from them (what tools to use, what CAT tool to get, how to write your profile, decide on your rate, and so on) but after a while, the negative posts that tend to appear here and there, the aggressivity of some (even if it's not the majority) posters made me look elsewhere for information. TM was one of the solutions I chose, and I don’t regret it.
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Anne, thank you so much for your comment.
It is for you.
Just goes to show...
Note: the thread is not about TM alone, but the spotlight has been trained our way. There is far more to Plus than our group of course, as I said earlier.
| | | | Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 21:02
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| @Tom, re: Translation Mastermind | Apr 27, 2019 |
Tom in London wrote:
I would not sign up for Translation Mastermind unless I had prior access to reviews by users... What extra marvels can it possibly offer in addition to Proz itself?
I'm a Plus member and I'm a "member" of Translation Mastermind (although I don't "follow" it because I have a life besides Facebook), so I can answer your question.
Translation Mastermind is basically ProZ.com's "art & business" sub-forums in Facebook format. It's for people who like to participate in the types of discussions that we have here on the "art & business" sub-forums, but who want to do so in a Facebook kind of way.
Based on the tone of the content posted by all members, I'd assume it is a consistently moderated group, which would certainly be something worth paying for.
[Edited at 2019-04-27 16:30 GMT]
| | | | | Not a Plus member but a paying TM member | Apr 27, 2019 |
Unlike most of the members of the Translation Mastermind, I am not there because of a Proz Plus membership - I am not even a paying member of Proz. I've been a paying member of TM from the first week it was launched. My reason was easy: There are no other translation groups on Facebook that suit me. I recently joined the Proz group on FB, only out of curiosity to see what Andrew will achieve there. I founded/run 5 other FB groups for translators that are very specific in their purpose:
... See more Unlike most of the members of the Translation Mastermind, I am not there because of a Proz Plus membership - I am not even a paying member of Proz. I've been a paying member of TM from the first week it was launched. My reason was easy: There are no other translation groups on Facebook that suit me. I recently joined the Proz group on FB, only out of curiosity to see what Andrew will achieve there. I founded/run 5 other FB groups for translators that are very specific in their purpose:
- one for an athletic year-round challenge,
- one for Mac users (which I've now handed over to a colleague),
- one for the WordPress users among translators (which I've also recently handed over to another colleague)
- a GDPR group for translators
- and a group for freelancers in general to celebrate Mondays (yes, it's a bit obscure, but also not really active)
I am also the admin of a few pages for clients in my working languages.
Why am I mentioning this? To highlight that I very much use Facebook either for business or for very specific reasons. So when Andrew offered a paid group with a strong focus on mindset, with curated content, with moderated threads, and with his dedication to great ideas, it was a no-brainer to me to go with it and use that group for a more leisurely use of FB. TM filters out a lot of the FB nonsense for me and it's a great way to share my experience gained in nearly two decades of freelancing. I very much appreciate the structure and positive atmosphere we have in TM.
Do I see a return on investment? Heck yes. Not only have I met some great people and very talented translators (friendships and collaborations). For a mere 3 Euro a month (less than a Starbucks coffee!), I get to see the content that I really want to see and no longer waste time scanning multiple groups where I would cringe at every third post that spirals into arguments, aggressiveness and trolling.
For those interested, you have a 14-day trial if you sign up for the annual plan. If you don't like it, cancel your subscription.
RE the empty blog and no reviews... Thank you for the reminder and giving some ideas. TM recently rebranded from SOM, which was a very complete website. The entire subscription solution was updated as well, but thank you for reminding me that I wanted to ask the users for a review. I had the pleasure of designing the website, so I am a bit involved from that side of the project. ▲ Collapse
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Thanks Samuel and Tanya for these very generous comments.
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Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
German to English
+ ...
| Communication skills | Apr 27, 2019 |
I'm not a Plus member (I checked what was on offer and felt there was no benefit in it for me), and I am not on Facebook - I closed my briefly-held account some years ago - so I have no knowledge of Andrew's group there. I am, however, pretty active on Twitter, where I don't talk about translation at all, but do have direct interactions with my clients and potential clients all the time. That works well for me. So, I don't have anything against social media per se, nor, of course, against forums... See more I'm not a Plus member (I checked what was on offer and felt there was no benefit in it for me), and I am not on Facebook - I closed my briefly-held account some years ago - so I have no knowledge of Andrew's group there. I am, however, pretty active on Twitter, where I don't talk about translation at all, but do have direct interactions with my clients and potential clients all the time. That works well for me. So, I don't have anything against social media per se, nor, of course, against forums, such as this one, where translators share experiences and advise one another. I don't contribute here much, but I often read the threads and find them useful and interesting at times.
I think it is worth repeating something that most of us must be aware of as language specialists. And that is that most of the threads here are in English. Those of us who are native speakers have an advantage, of course, in that it is easier for us to express ourselves. I am full of respect for non-native speakers here who contribute so often and fluently in second and third languages. And it is also worth repeating that there are many different forms of English, too, as well as cultural differences on display. Inevitably. We British English speakers very often speak in ironic tones and with humour that may go unnoticed by others. It can come across as negative, as people from other cultures report at times. I know Germany well and love it. I do find I have to swap my sense of humour for another when I am there, and I can expect, both in academic circles and more personally, that people are much more forthright in the way they express themselves. Those are just two examples plucked out of my life experience. There are undoubtedly many other instances where miscommunication can happen here on this forum, as elsewhere. It takes goodwill and patience to operate internationally. Undoubtedly, there are users of Proz who find it more unpleasant on this forum than I do for these reasons, and there maybe others. I don't know Tom in London personally, but always enjoy his wry sense of humour and often very helpful contributions on these forums. It is evident Andrew does not share my view. We have different perspectives for who knows what reasons.
In the end, we are just people, fellow professionals, here on a publicly accessible forum. Here and on Kudoz, there is a well-used set of rules that govern our interactions. Some of the comments of late, especially from Andrew, have contravened them, though perhaps since he is staff, they seem to have been left unmoderated. That, in itself, gives permission for further aggression. In fact, I am speaking now in a much more forthright and personal manner than I would otherwise. Maybe my comments will be removed.
All this puts me in mind of a lecturing contract I had at a school of higher education. I arrived on my first day to be told that the group I would be working with were useless, aggressive and never engaged with the classes or handed in essays. They had been written off, it seemed to me. I went into my first class with them and treated them with the same respect I treated any other of my student groups. Every single one of those students handed in all their assignments whilst I was teaching them. The other staff were aghast. To use a phrase Andrew likes, it was all about my mindset.
All of this leads me to my point: why, Andrew, did you think it sensible to turn up here telling us we are aggressive, unruly as a bunch, and that the forums were generally not like your wonderful FB group? And why are you now so quick to tell any contributors to this thread, especially those who are answering Tom's question about your group in a less favourable manner, that it is "not for them"? Why be so divisive? Shouldn't we all be open to constructive criticism without immediately being prickly and defensive in response? Why not be open to learning from what they have to say? And why not keep the door open for people, rather than slamming it in their face by saying "it is not for you"? It might be in the future. You never know. But it won't be, if you take that attitude.
Yes, some people (in life, as well as here) are aggressive, go on too much or belabour their points. Some of us miscommunicate. We come from different cultures. However, I haven't seen any ill will here, just strongly held views at times. Most of us know that if we start being offensive anywhere on Proz, our posts will be removed, so don't act in that way.
So my plea to the powers-that-be at Proz, and specifically Andrew, is to bring a halt to this divisive comparison, between here and the wondrous FB. Please consider, Andrew, whether your adversarial communication style might be contributing to the responses you are getting from some of my respected colleagues here. Could it be that you and the Proz staff have written off a group of people and this forum in unhelpful ways? Please consider that non-Proz people and potential clients can see all of this, too. #Justsaying, as we just say on Twitter 
[Edited at 2019-04-27 20:34 GMT]
[Edited at 2019-04-27 20:35 GMT]
[Edited at 2019-04-27 20:39 GMT]
[Edited at 2019-04-27 23:17 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | No offence meant | Apr 27, 2019 |
Helen, to be fair, since my mea culpa all of one day ago (which seems to have passed you by), I have made no insinuations at all against the forum. I have learned that lesson. Any comparisons above have come from other people, entirely unsolicited by me. They are of course free to speak their minds.
I am not sure if you are familiar with the work of Seth Godin. For him, and certainly for me, “It’s not for you” is neither a judgement nor a criticism. It is an acceptan... See more Helen, to be fair, since my mea culpa all of one day ago (which seems to have passed you by), I have made no insinuations at all against the forum. I have learned that lesson. Any comparisons above have come from other people, entirely unsolicited by me. They are of course free to speak their minds.
I am not sure if you are familiar with the work of Seth Godin. For him, and certainly for me, “It’s not for you” is neither a judgement nor a criticism. It is an acceptance. A realisation that you can’t please everyone, nor should you try. That way leads eternal frustration.
It is, I can assure you, neither intended to be prickly nor defensive.
Having said that, and meant it sincerely, I would ask those who are quick to judge my responses how THEY would react if someone dumped on a project to which they had devoted two years of their life. Please let’s be honest here, and not hold others to standards we would not apply to ourselves.
I get plenty of constructive criticism and suggestions from people within the group. All the time. But I suspect that those who find the group “a waste of time”, (which I said is their perfect right) are simply not my natural audience. That is all. I am not going to put my foot in their door and browbeat them into liking something they don’t like. That would be like trying to sell a rump steak to a vegan.
(Edited to add: Or like Freddie Mercury telling a group of Rolling Stones fans why his music is actually better than theirs. They are unlikely to buy it, right?)
Of course I am always open to being surprised, and to changing my mind. I do so often and gladly. On issues, and on people.
In the cases of “INFY” within this thread I am simply picking up on rather obvious signals, either in terms of explicit feedback freely given, or in terms of past attitudes to my work or what I have to offer in the “MistressMind” (ho ho ho).
Good old “wry” Tom will be the first to admit (or rather the second, after me) that we got off to a start that was less than optimal.
Either way, I am not really into discussing personalities, and all ad hominem posts are banned from the spaces I run for that very reason. Personalities in general – mine very much included – are far less interesting than ideas.
Talking of which, Roy’s thread is about ProZ Plus, not my group, and certainly not me or my personal style: a subject which has now been dealt with at some length and led to certain changes.
So we are veering somewhat off-topic here...
Can we possibly get back to the main issue? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Helen Shiner
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:02
German to English
+ ...
I have heard of Seth Godin, but have not read him. I guess this just proves my point. You may have been quoting him or adhering to his teachings, but I heard that phrase differently to what you intended. I'm willing to bet other people will be in the same boat as me.
Since Fiona's thread about you was removed and I could not contribute there, I posted here. I agree that some of my comments might be off-topic. However, my point also relates to this thread more specifically.
... See more I have heard of Seth Godin, but have not read him. I guess this just proves my point. You may have been quoting him or adhering to his teachings, but I heard that phrase differently to what you intended. I'm willing to bet other people will be in the same boat as me.
Since Fiona's thread about you was removed and I could not contribute there, I posted here. I agree that some of my comments might be off-topic. However, my point also relates to this thread more specifically.
Nonetheless, you have clarified your take in part. Thank you. I will leave it at that.
*** Editing my post several hours later to say this was my response to a post by Andrew that was shorter by several paragraphs than the one that appears above. Radical changes after the event beyond changes to punctuation and grammar are not really acceptable.
[Edited at 2019-04-28 06:40 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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