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Release announcement: New KudoZ features
Thread poster: Enrique Cavalitto
Kim Metzger
Kim Metzger  Identity Verified
Mexico
Local time: 09:12
German to English
Human translation May 24, 2006

Dyran Altenburg wrote:

Has ProZ ever condoned/promoted (say, to boost hits/visits) the use of the phrase "free translations by professionals" or "free human translation" directed at the general public regarding this website?

--
Dyran


As far as I know, the answer to your question is no. I don't think ProZ.com has used the phrases you mention. But a lot of the questions we get from clueless askers come from sites like these:

KudoZ!
A service of Yu Jian Yo Language Services, Ltd. and ProZ.com
Use this form to ask our network of professional human translators for help in translating terms that cannot be found in dictionaries.
http://www.e-multiweb.com/info/human.htm

KudoZ is a free human translation service. You can submit a word or phrase and have it translated. Moderators then grade the quality of the translation and award KudoZ points. Translators with high KudoZ points are superior candidates for translation work.

http://www.openinternetlexicon.com/Translators/Translators.html


It takes a while to become familiar with KudoZ: to understand the importance of adequate context, to know what KudoZ points are all about, to know why it's important to give professionals time to prepare well-researched answers, etc. This is why I believe it would be a good idea to introduce an orientation period before allowing folks to ask translation questions.



[Edited at 2006-05-24 15:37]


Zohèr Bênz
 
Dyran Altenburg (X)
Dyran Altenburg (X)  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:12
English to Spanish
+ ...
e-commerce 101 May 24, 2006

Kim Metzger wrote:
I don't think ProZ.com has used the phrases you mention.


That's not what I asked. By "condone/promote" I meant elsewhere.

But a lot of the questions we get from clueless askers come from sites like these:


Exactly.

Not that there's anything wrong with getting all the hits/visits you can, of course.

--
Dyran


Zohèr Bênz
 
Dyran Altenburg (X)
Dyran Altenburg (X)  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:12
English to Spanish
+ ...
It's already happening May 24, 2006

My point, Mikhail, is that ProZ is already perceived by many a user as a free human translation service, via KudoZ.

I think this approach is beneficial for ProZ as a web-based business, so changing it (or denying it exists) would not make much sense.

--
Dyran


Zohèr Bênz
 
Mikhail Kropotov
Mikhail Kropotov  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 16:12
English to Russian
+ ...
I will be your biggest fan if May 24, 2006

Dyran,

If you get Henry and the staff to agree with that statement, I will be your biggest fan


Zohèr Bênz
 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 11:12
SITE FOUNDER
Response to A Hayes May 24, 2006

A Hayes wrote:
Enrique wrote:
The objective of this new feature is to provide askers with a different option...

Thanks for your response, Enrique. But (1) that was not the question, and (2) the question was addressed at Henry.

Hi, A Hayes. Enrique is our Community Manager now, and as such he'll be posting in the forums increasingly on staff's behalf. He and I spoke prior to his posting and I agree with what he wrote.
Enrique wrote:
I honestly fail to see how the availability of an asker's option to formulate FVA questions that will award no KudoZ points to the selected answerer, nor will be shown in the KudoZ glossary is supposed to contribute to make the site “ full of amateurs ... cluttered and unprofessional”.

What can I say? Look closer.

The FVA mode is being used approximately 2 times per day, out of 1000 questions or so. Based on this data, we can now confidently say that this experiment is likely to have little or no impact on KudoZ in general.
Obviously, Proz's policies are inconsitent/selective, not only when it comes to punitive measures and censorship, but also when responding to forum topics.

Clearly your beef is not with KudoZ FVA, but with something else entirely. I can guess what it is, so I'll write to you directly.


 
Sormane Gomes
Sormane Gomes
United States
Local time: 11:12
Portuguese to English
+ ...
That is outrageous! May 24, 2006

Kim Metzger wrote:

KudoZ!
A service of Yu Jian Yo Language Services, Ltd. and ProZ.com
Use this form to ask our network of professional human translators for help in translating terms that cannot be found in dictionaries.
http://www.e-multiweb.com/info/human.htm

KudoZ is a free human translation service. You can submit a word or phrase and have it translated. Moderators then grade the quality of the translation and award KudoZ points. Translators with high KudoZ points are superior candidates for translation work.

http://www.openinternetlexicon.com/Translators/Translators.html



[Edited at 2006-05-24 15:37]




Henry wrote:

Several years ago we had a process whereby translation sites could sign up to have KudoZ boxes on their sites. The idea was to spread the word about the KudoZ service. To the extent that professional sites made use of KudoZ boxes, there was some degree of effectiveness. But we found that it was not practical to monitor the way in which affiliate sites were presenting KudoZ. That is why we are not now accepting KudoZ affiliates.

To answer your question, expressions like the one on that page ("FREE!") are not welcome, but to be fair, I did not think of forbidding it when we ran the program. I'll send a note to the owners of the site. (To be clear, though, Yu-Jian-Yo is not to blame. I have to take responsibility for this.)


http://www.proz.com/topic/32538


That is outrageous. I thought ProZ had taken care of that a long time ago.

Sormane Gomes


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 11:12
SITE FOUNDER
To Dyran: 'No' May 24, 2006

Dyran Altenburg wrote:

Enrique wrote:
None of our main objectives is in line with turning ProZ.com into a human translation service.


Here's a yes or no question:

Has ProZ ever condoned/promoted (say, to boost hits/visits) the use of the phrase "free translations by professionals" or "free human translation" directed at the general public regarding this website?

No. But as you may be aware--you participated in the discussion if I remember correctly--our affiliate program was misconstrued by some, and I took responsibility for the lack of clarity.

We discontinued the affiliate program about three years ago. And, as I have told you before, creating traffic through this and other programs, for the sake of traffic, is not an objective of ours. We gain nothing from it.

That is the long answer. The short answer is that I think translators ought to be paid for their commercial work.


 
Kirill Semenov
Kirill Semenov  Identity Verified
Ukraine
Local time: 17:12
Member (2004)
English to Russian
+ ...
What's the buzz? May 24, 2006

Hi everyone

In theory, I don't see any point in introducing these FVA questions - I think the proper treating of `not-for-grading' answers would be much more useful, as I stated in my fast response to this topic.

In practice, I don't see any reasons to worry about FVA questions, the option is too exotic to be used often enough to affect kudoZ somehow. Those who are able to understand what kudoZ is about w
... See more
Hi everyone

In theory, I don't see any point in introducing these FVA questions - I think the proper treating of `not-for-grading' answers would be much more useful, as I stated in my fast response to this topic.

In practice, I don't see any reasons to worry about FVA questions, the option is too exotic to be used often enough to affect kudoZ somehow. Those who are able to understand what kudoZ is about will never use the option; those who are not able to understand it, won't understand what the FVA feature is for.

So people, please, relax. On my opinion, this is just a minor and completely useless feature at ProZ.

[Edited at 2006-05-24 19:52]
Collapse


 
Dyran Altenburg (X)
Dyran Altenburg (X)  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:12
English to Spanish
+ ...
KudoZ purpose May 24, 2006

Henry wrote:
No. But as you may be aware--you participated in the discussion if I remember correctly--our affiliate program was misconstrued by some, and I took responsibility for the lack of clarity.


Fair enough. Are you then sayng that:

KudoZ questions coming from the general public today are a remnant of the affiliate program that was killed three years ago?

KudoZ's purpose is to help colleagues translate tricky terminology, not "I love you" phrases from the general public?

Also, when you say "commercial work" do you mean questions asked by the general public who think that KudoZ's purpose is to provide free human translation?

--
Dyran

[Edited at 2006-05-24 21:13]


 
Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D.
Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D.  Identity Verified
Local time: 11:12
Chinese to English
+ ...
Increased traffic is definitely a concern! May 25, 2006

Henry wrote:

And, as I have told you before, creating traffic through this and other programs, for the sake of traffic, is not an objective of ours. We gain nothing from it.


Sorry, Henry, I've got to call you on this one.

Anyone who runs a Web site for profit (and yours is definitely for profit) is concerned first and foremost about the number of paid subscribers, and the key way of promoting a site is by claiming a high number of hits. Increased traffic should (should!) translate into more job offers, more exposure for those listed, etc. etc.

Now, whether this happens, and whether this results in higher QUALITY job offers and participation is a separate issue. But to state that you have nothing to gain from increased traffic is really over-simplistic.

KudoZ and quality control essentially have never coexisted, as I have said (and been slapped for saying) in the past. It's interesting to see that the problem seems to have spread to other language combinations as well, based on the comments in this thread. But since KudoZ is an astonishingly successful psychological construct for the site (grappling for points that can't even be redeemed for jellybeans) it certainly works from a commercial standpoint. And no one is suggesting that the site should be obligated to behave like a non-profit, after all. It's a business, pure and simple. People always tend to take ownership psychologically of sites where they post or are active, but at the end of the day the site belongs to the owner, who can do as he or she pleases.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 11:12
SITE FOUNDER
More responses May 25, 2006

Dyran Altenburg wrote:
Henry wrote:
No. But as you may be aware--you participated in the discussion if I remember correctly--our affiliate program was misconstrued by some, and I took responsibility for the lack of clarity.


Fair enough. Are you then sayng that:

KudoZ questions coming from the general public today are a remnant of the affiliate program that was killed three years ago?

Yes, that is the case. May have been four or five years ago, actually.
KudoZ's purpose is to help colleagues translate tricky terminology, not "I love you" phrases from the general public?

I would not define the purpose of KudoZ so narrowly to begin with; for example, we are also building an archive with KudoZ. But for the purpose of your question as I understand it, I would say that tricky terminology is appropriate subject matter for the KudoZ PRO section, but "I love you" , etc., belongs in the non-PRO section. (And is OK there.)
Also, when you say "commercial work" do you mean questions asked by the general public who think that KudoZ's purpose is to provide free human translation?

No, I mean "commercial work" literally, ie. work that is to be used in commerce.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 11:12
SITE FOUNDER
No, Terry May 25, 2006

Terry Thatcher Waltz, Ph.D. wrote:
Henry wrote:
And, as I have told you before, creating traffic through this and other programs, for the sake of traffic, is not an objective of ours. We gain nothing from it.

Sorry, Henry, I've got to call you on this one.

Anyone who runs a Web site for profit (and yours is definitely for profit) is concerned first and foremost about the number of paid subscribers, and the key way of promoting a site is by claiming a high number of hits.

No, Terry. I stand by what I wrote. For ProZ.com, traffic is a *reflection* that we are doing things right, but it is by no means an end in itself.

Remember, traffic costs money (and produces delays!) It is in our interest to facilitate collaboration and exchanges in as efficient a manner as possible, and that means *fewer hits*, to the extent possible. We often look for ways to reduce hits, and we never look for ways to boost them.

Of course, not every site shares our philosophy. Some sites have an advertising model, where the income from showing a page is greater than the expense. Such sites may want to generate page views just so that there will be more clicks. We don't work that way.


 
Dyran Altenburg (X)
Dyran Altenburg (X)  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 11:12
English to Spanish
+ ...
Non sequitur May 25, 2006

Henry wrote:
Remember, traffic costs money (and produces delays!) It is in our interest to facilitate collaboration and exchanges in as efficient a manner as possible, and that means *fewer hits*, to the extent possible. We often look for ways to reduce hits, and we never look for ways to boost them.


Then why accept KudoZ queries from the general public when increased traffic is not a concern?

Why come up with FVA models (clearly geared at the general public) when it's obvious contributing users and paying members are openly against it?

Of course, not every site shares our philosophy. Some sites have an advertising model, where the income from showing a page is greater than the expense. Such sites may want to generate page views just so that there will be more clicks. We don't work that way.


Except you do run advertisements.

[Edited at 2006-05-25 12:29]


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 11:12
SITE FOUNDER
A request for Dyran May 25, 2006

Dyran Altenburg wrote:
Henry wrote:
Remember, traffic costs money (and produces delays!) It is in our interest to facilitate collaboration and exchanges in as efficient a manner as possible, and that means *fewer hits*, to the extent possible. We often look for ways to reduce hits, and we never look for ways to boost them.

Then why accept KudoZ queries from the general public when increased traffic is not a concern?

Dyran, we have been through this several times before. You may continue to think that the point of KudoZ is the traffic, that it could only be about dollars, in spite of the fact that I have told you it is about the terms and translation. But at the very least, please, have the courtesy to present your position as your own personal opinion--held regardless of what anyone else says--and stop presenting it as an authoritative statement of fact.

And furthermore, rather than directing the same questions to me personally and pointedly in the future, when you have shown over the past five years that you have no intention of accepting anything I say in response, just feel free to leave me out of it and present your views straightaway.
Why come up with FVA models (clearly geared at the general public) when it's obvious contributing users and paying members are openly against it?

Why ask questions, if you already have all the answers? Next time, save yourself the page views (= dollars for ProZ.com, according to you), and just repeat your usual positions as opinions rather than questions.


 
A Hayes (X)
A Hayes (X)
Australia
Local time: 01:12
Let's agree to disagree, shall we? May 25, 2006

Henry,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Henry wrote:
The FVA mode is being used approximately 2 times per day, out of 1000 questions or so. Based on this data, we can now confidently say that this experiment is likely to have little or no impact on KudoZ in general.


I am concerned about the overall direction this site is taking. I do not like it. You are right that it is not only KudoZ FVA I disagree with. As I said earlier on, I believe many of the changes implemented and, above all, attitudes adopted (by site staff and some members) over the last couple of years are unfortunate and undesirable.

Henry wrote:
Clearly your beef is not with KudoZ FVA, but with something else entirely. I can guess what it is, so I'll write to you directly.


And what might that be? I have no idea what you are referring to. Anyone who has been on ProZ long enough has witnessed instances of the site’s inconsistent policies. Whether they've said something about it or not is an entirely different kettle of fish.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree, I’m afraid. Proz will continue with its non sequitur statements and this could go on in circles forever.


 
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