| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | ProZ.com "Professional Guidelines" to be updated. Any requests / additions / edits to propose? Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
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Hi all,
The ProZ.com Professional Guidelines will be updated slightly in the near future. Since there is versioning of the guidelines, with endorsements applying to specific versions, we would like to bundle any changes into one new revision. So if anyone has any suggestions for changes, something that has been bothering you (like this), etc., please propose now.
... See more Hi all,
The ProZ.com Professional Guidelines will be updated slightly in the near future. Since there is versioning of the guidelines, with endorsements applying to specific versions, we would like to bundle any changes into one new revision. So if anyone has any suggestions for changes, something that has been bothering you (like this), etc., please propose now.
See: http://www.proz.com/professional-guidelines/ ▲ Collapse
| | | | Jessica Noyes 
United States
Local time: 10:11
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
| - Answer, courteously, inquiries related to services, fees and available equipment | Oct 24, 2016 |
I would like to see this one deleted. Some of the queries I receive are outrageous, and I would like to feel comfortable simply deleting these emails, rather than responding politely. Some that come through ProZ.com are spam, and it is actually inadvisable to respond, as they may harvest my address, which is not visible to them on the site. I am aware that I have signed these guidelines though, and hesitate not to respond.
[Edited at 2016-10-24 21:25 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-10... See more I would like to see this one deleted. Some of the queries I receive are outrageous, and I would like to feel comfortable simply deleting these emails, rather than responding politely. Some that come through ProZ.com are spam, and it is actually inadvisable to respond, as they may harvest my address, which is not visible to them on the site. I am aware that I have signed these guidelines though, and hesitate not to respond.
[Edited at 2016-10-24 21:25 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-10-24 21:25 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mario Chavez (X)
Local time: 10:11
English to Spanish
+ ...
| Prevent translation students or others from fishing for answers | Oct 24, 2016 |
Henry, I just answered to an Argentine translation student who has been posting questions to complete his own translation tests and/or homework. Maybe this student is unaware that he is engaging in unethical behavior (submitting homework not entirely completed by him).
I would like to see those queries removed from the site. Some translators answer them in good faith, thinking they're helping a fellow translator, but I see abuse.
| | | | Gerard de Noord
France
Local time: 16:11
Member (2003)
English to Dutch
+ ...
| I support Jessica | Oct 24, 2016 |
Jessica Noyes wrote:
I would like to see this one deleted. Some of the queries I receive are outrageous, and I would like to feel comfortable simply deleting these emails, rather than responding politely. Some that come through ProZ.com are spam, and it is actually inadvisable to respond, as they may harvest my address, which is not visible to them on the site. I am aware that I have signed these guidelines though, and hesitate not to respond.
[Edited at 2016-10-24 21:25 GMT]
[Edited at 2016-10-24 21:25 GMT]
I support Jessica. Let's delete this guideline. Too often I receive mass mails asking me for my "best" rate without even mentioning my name. It would be better to have no guideline at all when it comes to e-mail.
At least, remove the comma at the end of the sentence.
Cheers,
Gerard
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 16:11
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
Henry Dotterer wrote: So if anyone has any suggestions for changes, something that has been bothering you (like this), etc., please propose now.
* answer, courteously, inquiries related to services, fees and available equipment,
No, this is poorly worded. It implies that all queries are always answered, even time-wasting ones. I agree with the intended meaning, i.e. that translators are not rude but polite in their communication with potential clients. Even so, politeness is a cultural thing -- what is considered neutral in one culture may be considered rude in another.
Perhaps "treat clients, potential clients and other translators with professional courtesy". Alternatively, "act professionally when answering inquiries related to services, fees and available equipment".
* accept only assignments that they have the knowledge, resources and time to do well
This is a high ideal but it is only attainable in some language combinations where there is an abundance of suitable translators. What is important is that the client should be fully aware of the translator's limitations and of the effect that those limitations would have on the translator's ability/inability to deliver a translation that is useful for the client's intended purpose.
Perhaps "are honest and forthcoming about their ability to perform assignments to the required standard".
==
In addition my comments/suggestions in this thread still broadly represent my views. To summarise, in that thread I made these suggestions:
answer, courteously, inquiries related to services, fees and available equipment,
Suggested change: answer inquiries related to services, fees and available equipment honestly
disclose, prior to accepting any assignment, any biases that may have relevance
Suggested change: disclose in a timely manner any biases that they regard as relevant
treat all sensitive information as confidential, and take steps to protect that confidentiality
Suggested change: are sensitive to the confidential nature of client-translator relationships and take steps to maintain confidentiality
take any and all steps necessary to ensure consistent delivery of work of a high professional standard
Suggested change: take steps to ensure consistent delivery of work of a high professional standard
do not attempt to change, after work has begun, agreed-upon terms (except by mutual consultation)
Suggested change: do not make unilateral changes to the agreed-upon terms
do everything possible to meet agreed-upon terms, even when unforeseen problems are encountered
Suggested change: do everything reasonable to meet agreed-upon terms, even when unforeseen problems are encountered
do not directly contact end clients, or subcontractors, without permission
Suggested change: respect the nature of the relationship with the client and with the client's end-client, if any
[Edited at 2016-10-24 23:05 GMT]
| | | | texjax DDS PhD
Local time: 10:11
Member (2006)
English to Italian
+ ...
| Professional rates | Oct 25, 2016 |
I propose a small but significant change.
* set their rates at levels that allow them to deliver, on an ongoing basis, the quality levels that their clients require
Suggested change:
* set their rates at professional levels that allow them to deliver, on an ongoing basis, the quality that their clients require
| | | | Ilan Rubin (X)
Russian Federation
Local time: 17:11
Russian to English
| False native speakers | Oct 25, 2016 |
I want to add a guideline that translators will not claim to be native speakers when they aren't. My pair (Ru>En) has a large number of Russian natives who learnt English later, moved to English-speaking countries and claim to be bilingual and native speakers of English. And it's often clear from the incorrect use of English in their profiles and or Kudoz answers that they aren't. And it's about time Proz cracked down on this abuse, which demeans the skills of Ru>En translators who are native En... See more I want to add a guideline that translators will not claim to be native speakers when they aren't. My pair (Ru>En) has a large number of Russian natives who learnt English later, moved to English-speaking countries and claim to be bilingual and native speakers of English. And it's often clear from the incorrect use of English in their profiles and or Kudoz answers that they aren't. And it's about time Proz cracked down on this abuse, which demeans the skills of Ru>En translators who are native English speakers. People who learnt English as a second language cannot be native speakers or bilingual, no matter how good they think they are or how long they lived in an English-speaking country, simple as that. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:11
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| My suggestion | Oct 25, 2016 |
My suggestion would be to open the Guidelines with a statement of general principle, for all to see, along the lines of something like:
"Global trade and the spread of ideas and knowledge would not be possible without the skilled work of the professional translator. Proz.com brings together translators and clients, and encourages a focus on quality and professionalism."
...followed by the remainder of the Guidelines.
[Edited at 2016-10-25 08:41 GMT]
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Tom in London wrote:
My suggestion would be to open the Guidelines with a statement of general principle, for all to see, along the lines of something like:
"Global trade and the spread of ideas and knowledge would not be possible without the skilled work of the professional translator. Proz.com brings together translators and clients, and encourages a focus on quality and professionalism."
...followed by the remainder of the Guidelines.
That's outstanding. Thanks, Tom.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 15:11
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Henry Dotterer wrote: Tom in London wrote:
My suggestion would be to open the Guidelines with a statement of general principle, for all to see, along the lines of something like:
"Global trade and the spread of ideas and knowledge would not be possible without the skilled work of the professional translator. Proz.com brings together translators and clients, and encourages a focus on quality and professionalism."
...followed by the remainder of the Guidelines. That's outstanding. Thanks, Tom.
Thanks Henry- it has been a hobby horse of mine for quite a while. It's translators who actually make the world go round.
| | | | | I back this suggestion | Oct 25, 2016 |
ILAN RUBIN wrote:
I want to add a guideline that translators will not claim to be native speakers when they aren't. My pair (Ru>En) has a large number of Russian natives who learnt English later, moved to English-speaking countries and claim to be bilingual and native speakers of English. And it's often clear from the incorrect use of English in their profiles and or Kudoz answers that they aren't. And it's about time Proz cracked down on this abuse, which demeans the skills of Ru>En translators who are native English speakers. People who learnt English as a second language cannot be native speakers or bilingual, no matter how good they think they are or how long they lived in an English-speaking country, simple as that.
Two of my three language pairs are virtually dominated by source language natives claiming to be native English speakers. However these claims are made on the profile page and afaik, there is no guideline, rule or requirement for anything visible on a profile page to be truthful or reflect reality. This has come up a number of times before and no action has ever been taken. Personally I don't think this is what Proz has in mind with "professional guidelines". Please correct me if I'm wrong.
| | | | | Treat all sensitive information as confidential... | Oct 25, 2016 |
Dear Henry,
One of the guideline says:
"treat all sensitive information as confidential, and take steps to protect that confidentiality "
I was wondering about this guideline. How is this guideline compatible with the fact that on tm-town translators are encouraged to upload their TMs?
Best regards,
Katalin
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| Caution needed here | Oct 25, 2016 |
ILAN RUBIN wrote:
I want to add a guideline that translators will not claim to be native speakers when they aren't. My pair (Ru>En) has a large number of Russian natives who learnt English later, moved to English-speaking countries and claim to be bilingual and native speakers of English. And it's often clear from the incorrect use of English in their profiles and or Kudoz answers that they aren't. And it's about time Proz cracked down on this abuse, which demeans the skills of Ru>En translators who are native English speakers. People who learnt English as a second language cannot be native speakers or bilingual, no matter how good they think they are or how long they lived in an English-speaking country, simple as that.
Sorry, but I disagree here.
This is a real can of worms, which I would prefer not to see mentioned specifically, because being a native speaker is so hard to define. Anything cryptic about 'not claiming to be a native speaker ... ' or not making claims about native language ...' would be too vague to be effective, or else would exclude many translators who are well qualified for the work they take on.
I do definitely recognise the problem, and would like to see action taken, but I do not think the guidelines are the place to deal with it.
As a small quibble, bilingual does not, in fact, necessarily mean that a person speaks two languages at native level; it means they are fluent in two languages, so ALL translators must be bilingual!
Being a native speaker of a language is not the same as speaking and writing it correctly enough for professional purposes.
English is especially problematic, because so many people take part or most of their education in English and grow up with it. Inevitably, they do not all achieve the same standard or 'flavour' of English, but it feels like a native language to them. Some may actually be less literate in their local or national language, because they only speak it, but have barely used it at school.
OK, then you can discuss whether they should become translators, but it is impossible to formulate a general guideline for all cases.
________________________
I personally think the answer is to shift the emphasis from being a native speaker (which is not a qualification in itself, although it is undeniably an advantage in many situations) to real and relevant qualifications for the specific assignment: understanding of the source and the subject area, familiarity with the terminology and the target group, and THEN, if possible, native command of the target language.
In so many language pairs, native speakers of the target language who also understand the source and the subject matter are are not always available, and it is not unethical to find the best possible alternative.
But this is a completely different discussion, and a completely different topic.
I would only suggest that the question of native language should not be named specifically in the guidelines. It belongs under general honesty and transparency about taking on assignments that match one's qualifications and experience.
| | | | | Native language covered by "represent their credentials, capabilities and experiences honestly" | Oct 25, 2016 |
I consider the issue with native language claims to be covered by the first guideline: "represent their credentials, capabilities and experiences honestly".
Verification / enforcement is a separate question. (Not one for this thread, though.)
Christine Andersen wrote:
I would only suggest that the question of native language should not be named specifically in the guidelines. It belongs under general honesty and transparency about taking on assignments that match one's qualifications and experience.
Exactly, Christine.
| | | | | Watch out for tautology | Oct 25, 2016 |
The guidelines are, in effect, a statement of what "professional" means in the fields of translation and interpretation. Consequently, the "rules" cannot meaningfully be defined in terms of "professionalism", or "professional" standards.
These quotes from Samuel and texjax will illustrate the tautology:
Samuel Murray wrote:
"treat clients, potential clients and other translators with professional courtesy".
Alternatively, "act professionally when answering inquiries related to services, fees and available equipment".
"take steps to ensure consistent delivery of work of a high professional standard"
"set their rates at professional levels that allow them to deliver,…"
There are other occurrences in the existing guidelines, which need to be edited out.
The only places in the document where "professional" (and similar) can properly appear are in the title of the document “Professional Guidelines” and in Tom’s suggested - and very good - opening paragraph.
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