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ProZ.com "Professional Guidelines" to be updated. Any requests / additions / edits to propose?
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Christopher Schröder
Christopher Schröder
United Kingdom
Member (2011)
Swedish to English
+ ...
Misrepresentation Oct 25, 2016

Tom in London wrote:

Proz.com (...) encourages a focus on quality and professionalism.



Sounds nice, but it doesn't. ProZ accepts absolutely anyone.


 
Samuel Murray
Samuel Murray  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 12:05
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
@Mediamatrix Oct 25, 2016

Robin Levey wrote:
The guidelines are, in effect, a statement of what "professional" means in the fields of translation and interpretation. Consequently, the "rules" cannot meaningfully be defined in terms of "professionalism", or "professional" standards.


You make a valid point, but then we'd have to come up with other words that are similarly vague. In the two examples from my post, I suppose "business-like" could possibly be used in the place of "professional[ly]", but I'm concerned that for some people the term "business-like" would imply being blunt.


 
Ilan Rubin (X)
Ilan Rubin (X)  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 14:05
Russian to English
Henry: Oct 25, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:

I consider the issue with native language claims to be covered by the first guideline: "represent their credentials, capabilities and experiences honestly".

Verification / enforcement is a separate question. (Not one for this thread, though.)



Thanks Henry,

The problem is that you don't enforce it. And I wonder whether you don't enforce it because some of these fraudsters are paying members. I can send you a list of some of these fraudsters if you are prepared to take action.

I would think that adding this text to the guidelines would be a very small step towards enforcement, but please go ahead and enforce it by other means.


 
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:05
Spanish to English
+ ...
Where are the guidelines for outsourcers? Oct 25, 2016

Does proz.com have guidelines for outsourcers who recruit freelancers from the site? If not, it should. If so, it would seem appropriate to subject said guidelines to the kind of scrutiny and feedback invited in the present thread.

I offer this parenthetical thought in light of the generally low standards of behavior I see reflected in much of the correspondence I receive from outsourcers.

Guidelines for outsourcers would cover issues such as honesty, promptness of com
... See more
Does proz.com have guidelines for outsourcers who recruit freelancers from the site? If not, it should. If so, it would seem appropriate to subject said guidelines to the kind of scrutiny and feedback invited in the present thread.

I offer this parenthetical thought in light of the generally low standards of behavior I see reflected in much of the correspondence I receive from outsourcers.

Guidelines for outsourcers would cover issues such as honesty, promptness of communication, use of mass e-mails, and...oh yes..."fair rates."
Collapse


 
Robert Forstag
Robert Forstag  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 07:05
Spanish to English
+ ...
A real double-edged sword there... Oct 25, 2016

Chris S wrote:

Tom in London wrote:

Proz.com (...) encourages a focus on quality and professionalism.



Sounds nice, but it doesn't. ProZ accepts absolutely anyone.


Correct.

A fair paraphrase of Tom's suggested text would be as follows:

While we at proz.com certainly encourage a focus on quality and professionalism among our members and users, this site also hosts a good many profiles of persons who do not meet even the most relaxed standards of quality and professionalism in their work.


 
Ilan Rubin (X)
Ilan Rubin (X)  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 14:05
Russian to English
Ha ha! Oct 25, 2016

Robert Forstag wrote:

Chris S wrote:

Tom in London wrote:

Proz.com (...) encourages a focus on quality and professionalism.



Sounds nice, but it doesn't. ProZ accepts absolutely anyone.


Correct.

A fair paraphrase of Tom's suggested text would be as follows:

While we at proz.com certainly encourage a focus on quality and professionalism among our members and users, this site also hosts a good many profiles of persons who do not meet even the most relaxed standards of quality and professionalism in their work.


You forgot to add "...who do not meet even the most relaxed standards of quality, professionalism AND HONESTY in their work" (as per my previous posts)


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:05
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
There is enforcement Oct 25, 2016

ILAN RUBIN wrote:
The problem is that you don't enforce it.

Not true. We do routinely request changes, and even remove profiles, when it is clear that there is misrepresentation.

ILAN RUBIN wrote:
I can send you a list of some of these fraudsters if you are prepared to take action.

Any time you see a clear case of misrepresentation, you can let the ProZ.com team know via support ticket. A member of the team will certainly investigate.

By the way, as Ilan probably knows, the professional guidelines are made binding in the ProZ.com Certified Pro Network. That is, one has to endorse the guidelines and agree to be bound by them as a condition of participating in the CPN. Engaging in conduct not consistent with the professional guidelines can be grounds for removal from the CPN. (We have in fact removed several people from the program.)

Whether or not one is a paying member has no impact on the manner in which we enforce the policies.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:05
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, Robert Oct 25, 2016

Robert Forstag wrote:

Does proz.com have guidelines for outsourcers who recruit freelancers from the site? If not, it should. If so, it would seem appropriate to subject said guidelines to the kind of scrutiny and feedback invited in the present thread.

I offer this parenthetical thought in light of the generally low standards of behavior I see reflected in much of the correspondence I receive from outsourcers.

Guidelines for outsourcers would cover issues such as honesty, promptness of communication, use of mass e-mails, and...oh yes..."fair rates."

If you notice, the guidelines were written to apply not only to translators and interpreters but also to translation companies. You make a good point about rates, though. That term is not written in a way that covers payment (vs. charging.) It may be a good time to enter such things.


 
Ilan Rubin (X)
Ilan Rubin (X)  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 14:05
Russian to English
Not true Oct 25, 2016

Henry Dotterer wrote:

ILAN RUBIN wrote:
The problem is that you don't enforce it.

Not true. We do routinely request changes, and even remove profiles, when it is clear that there is misrepresentation.

ILAN RUBIN wrote:
I can send you a list of some of these fraudsters if you are prepared to take action.

Any time you see a clear case of misrepresentation, you can let the ProZ.com team know via support ticket. A member of the team will certainly investigate.



I complained at least twice to moderators about fraudsters pretending to be native English speakers. My complaints were ignored. Not investigated, just ignored.

[Edited at 2016-10-25 16:56 GMT]


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:05
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
To be fair Oct 25, 2016

ILAN RUBIN wrote:
I complained at least twice to moderators about fraudsters pretending to be native English speakers. My complaints were ignored. Not investigated, just ignored.

I once sent a support ticket about a "P" member who claimed to be a native English speaker. I was able to prove that he most certainly was not, and the "P" was removed. I imagine his sample was a complete fraud.


 
Ilan Rubin (X)
Ilan Rubin (X)  Identity Verified
Russian Federation
Local time: 14:05
Russian to English
Was the 'N' removed? Oct 25, 2016

Sheila Wilson wrote:

ILAN RUBIN wrote:
I complained at least twice to moderators about fraudsters pretending to be native English speakers. My complaints were ignored. Not investigated, just ignored.

I once sent a support ticket about a "P" member who claimed to be a native English speaker. I was able to prove that he most certainly was not, and the "P" was removed. I imagine his sample was a complete fraud.


So between us that's one out of three at best 😊

You must be a "glass is half (third?) full" person, Sheila 😁


 
Sheila Wilson
Sheila Wilson  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 11:05
Member (2007)
English
+ ...
100% success rate for me so far, Ilan ;) Oct 25, 2016

ILAN RUBIN wrote:
Was the 'N' removed?

No, it wasn't. But it was one of two "native" languages, as so often happens with English nowadays. He may well be a genuine native speaker of the other. I believe in that case neither one is considered to be "verified" unless you specifically go through the verification process. For those of us who only claim one native language, it's classed as automatically verified.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:05
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Mods don't do that Oct 25, 2016

ILAN RUBIN wrote:
I complained at least twice to moderators about fraudsters pretending to be native English speakers. My complaints were ignored. Not investigated, just ignored.

Moderators don't investigate this sort of thing, only staff members do. You have to submit a support ticket. They don't get ignored.


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 07:05
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Thanks, Robin Oct 25, 2016

Robin Levey wrote:

The guidelines are, in effect, a statement of what "professional" means in the fields of translation and interpretation. Consequently, the "rules" cannot meaningfully be defined in terms of "professionalism", or "professional" standards.

Thanks!


 
Sara Massons
Sara Massons  Identity Verified
France
Local time: 12:05
Member (2016)
English to French
+ ...
Being honest Oct 26, 2016

Christine Andersen wrote:

ILAN RUBIN wrote:

I want to add a guideline that translators will not claim to be native speakers when they aren't. My pair (Ru>En) has a large number of Russian natives who learnt English later, moved to English-speaking countries and claim to be bilingual and native speakers of English. And it's often clear from the incorrect use of English in their profiles and or Kudoz answers that they aren't. And it's about time Proz cracked down on this abuse, which demeans the skills of Ru>En translators who are native English speakers. People who learnt English as a second language cannot be native speakers or bilingual, no matter how good they think they are or how long they lived in an English-speaking country, simple as that.


Sorry, but I disagree here.

This is a real can of worms, which I would prefer not to see mentioned specifically, because being a native speaker is so hard to define. Anything cryptic about 'not claiming to be a native speaker ... ' or not making claims about native language ...' would be too vague to be effective, or else would exclude many translators who are well qualified for the work they take on.

I do definitely recognise the problem, and would like to see action taken, but I do not think the guidelines are the place to deal with it.

As a small quibble, bilingual does not, in fact, necessarily mean that a person speaks two languages at native level; it means they are fluent in two languages, so ALL translators must be bilingual!
Being a native speaker of a language is not the same as speaking and writing it correctly enough for professional purposes.

English is especially problematic, because so many people take part or most of their education in English and grow up with it. Inevitably, they do not all achieve the same standard or 'flavour' of English, but it feels like a native language to them. Some may actually be less literate in their local or national language, because they only speak it, but have barely used it at school.
OK, then you can discuss whether they should become translators, but it is impossible to formulate a general guideline for all cases.
________________________

I personally think the answer is to shift the emphasis from being a native speaker (which is not a qualification in itself, although it is undeniably an advantage in many situations) to real and relevant qualifications for the specific assignment: understanding of the source and the subject area, familiarity with the terminology and the target group, and THEN, if possible, native command of the target language.

In so many language pairs, native speakers of the target language who also understand the source and the subject matter are are not always available, and it is not unethical to find the best possible alternative.

But this is a completely different discussion, and a completely different topic.

I would only suggest that the question of native language should not be named specifically in the guidelines. It belongs under general honesty and transparency about taking on assignments that match one's qualifications and experience.


 
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