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Which "variant", if any, of your native language do you speak?
Thread poster: Henry Dotterer
Stefan Blommaert
Stefan Blommaert
Brazil
Local time: 18:31
Member (2012)
English to Dutch
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Couldn´t agree more Nov 1, 2012

[quote]Bernhard Sulzer wrote:



But I don't support the "variant" option.

One of the meanings of "variant" is "deviating from a standard".
As far as German is concerned, you learn the same German in school, you read the same classic German literature, you are exposed to many German television stations and programs from all German-speaking countries and regions.

You are born and grow up in a particular German-speaking area but that does not limit your ability to render a text in German for all German-speaking regions. Exceptions exist, in particular for Swiss German (I am not talking about Schwyzer Dütsch - which is a spoken dialect - used in general conversations as well as on Swiss television - often, not always) but I'm talking about the "standard" German used in Switzerland which contains many words that are not first or second choice in other German-speaking regions. Nevertheless, that German is still something every NS of German understands, and the grammatical rules are the same. Sometimes a client from Switzerland will look for a German native speaker who grew up in Switzerland and that's okay.

But in general, when one translates into or from German, we mean a standard German that all people in German-speaking countries and regions understand (read) and use (write).

The regional differences between Germany and Austria are far smaller than a colleague has indicated.
And as an experienced translator, you are certainly aware of some important differences and able to handle them.

I believe the variant option is more than just indicating where you grew up. It implies you "speak" only one or two particular variants, thus limiting the scope of the services you offer. As translators, we don't "speak" the language, we "write" it and in German we write "standard German" unless as specified by the client or as decided by the translator, for special reasons.





I am of the same opinion when it comes to my own mother tongue, Dutch. There is ONE (and only one) written language with one grammar; the language we (should) learn and use at school. The existing differences (yes, they do exist, as is only natural for a language that is spoken over a wider geographical area and in different sociological situations) are far fewer and less important than a lot of people would like to point out or dwell upon. Also, these differences should be easily picked up/noticed/avoided/removed/introduced by anyone who is linguistically professionaly active. Also, there are areas where these differences are far more important than in others (public relations or marketing material for example, in comparison to technical texts) and it is only natural that in these cases special attention should pay attention to that aspect of translation. Looked at it from a different point of view, this "diversity" is a perfect way to keep language fresh and lively, because it introduces different ways of saying the same thing. The necessary condition for the latter of course being the willingness to accept things that are "not always quite as we expect them to be";

As for the remainder; if we continue splitting up languages, we will unnecessarily end up with a patchwork of so-called "different languages" within one main language (is this main language then still to be considered as a language, by the way?), each linked to a specific town or even neighbourhood, which I think is totally ridiculous.

Of course, all of the above is only valid for languages for which there is indeed something like a "standard language" that is being taught at school.

[Edited at 2012-11-01 18:19 GMT]


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 17:31
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Sharing some information on native language variants entered Nov 1, 2012

OK, folks, as this is for now an information gathering exercise, we'd like to share the data that is coming in. We'd be interested in your reactions, especially to the variants being entered in your language(s).

See: http://www.proz.com/demographics.php/native-variants


 
Alexander C. Thomson
Alexander C. Thomson  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 22:31
Dutch to English
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Highly language-specific issues here — difficult to find a resolution satisfactory to all Nov 1, 2012

The most compelling posts thus far, to my mind, are:

- the one by Graça Ribeiro pointing out that the variant issue is a core question for Portuguese translations, one that both providers and commissioners of translations/interpreting think about a great deal (and this is perhaps more so for Portuguese than for any other major language in the world, not because of any wildly greater phonological/lexical/syntactical differences per se compared with the spectrums within other major l
... See more
The most compelling posts thus far, to my mind, are:

- the one by Graça Ribeiro pointing out that the variant issue is a core question for Portuguese translations, one that both providers and commissioners of translations/interpreting think about a great deal (and this is perhaps more so for Portuguese than for any other major language in the world, not because of any wildly greater phonological/lexical/syntactical differences per se compared with the spectrums within other major languages, but I think because of Portuguese and Brazilian and sometimes African Lusophone market requirements); and

- the one by KKastenhuber pointing out the very real danger that what we might call “your common or garden client” for a translation likes to go on metrics and drop-down menu choices where available, and is very likely to put excessive weight on the consideration of “we must / mustn’t have an Austrian-variety German speaker for this job”. **


So, it might not be an over-simplification to say that we have a quandary: colleagues for Portuguese would be greatly benefited by the existence/obligation on ProZ of exactly the same kind of language-variant boxes that would be worse than useless, detrimental even, to the reputation of (e.g.) an Austrian translator who has been doing perfectly well specialising in standard German / German-of-Germany work?


Let us please bear in mind that most clients who are not particularly linguistically-minded have a disappointingly low faith in translators’ ability to use their skills, education and experience to “hear in their heads” where a language variant issue would cause the readership problems or amusement. Also, they set great store by the professional presentation of data on ProZ and assume that the community of translators and interpreters really knows what it is doing (and the implications across the board) when this level of granularity is introduced.


How to reconcile this?


At the least, let us think long and hard about the situation for each language: the dozen or so most widely-used world languages each have a broad and unique situation with variants (including very different situations from each other as regards how much geographical variants are a factor in translation/interpreting), which could easily make a standard fit on this issue unsatisfactory.

And the consensus on a need to differentiate variants for (e.g.) Portuguese or English for translation/interpreting purposes shouldn’t be allowed to drag all the world’s languages in its wake into a compulsion to identify supposedly agreed-upon variants (or at least that are of linguistic or commercial significance for translation and interpreting). With minor/niche languages, whose use is geographically, historically and culturally much more constrained than the major ones, it is probably inevitable that ‘language variant’ will for practical purposes be taken to mean ‘(geographical) dialect’. My second native language, for instance, is Scots. There aren’t even agreed academic linguistic standards for what the dialects of Scots are. My father is from Clackmannanshire and that’s the Scots that I grew up speaking with him and relatives, so I had better for the purposes of this experiment put down “East Central” or “North-East Central” as the variant, for that is what the linguistic atlas people have established as the taxonomy. But in the event that I ever am approached through ProZ to produce a translation in Scots, I don’t want the client thinking, “Will this guy’s North-East Central be understood by my readers across Scotland and Ulster, or had I better look for someone offering Glaswegian because I guess that’s geographically central and has cultural traction as an urban dialect?” (In this case, which would be replicated for very many minor languages around the world, the putative client’s “educated guess” that Glaswegian-variety Scots is the “safest bet” would be sadly misplaced, making the language variety function worse than useless for translator-selection purposes.)


At the risk of being shot down in flames, I’m going to try to categorise some major languages in terms of how the proposed use of language-variant information on ProZ would work (for written translations in standard language registers):

Highly beneficial in most cases / subject areas
Portuguese
Spanish

Somewhat beneficial in some cases / subject areas but easily overblown
French
English
Arabic (but differentiation would run clean contrary to the growing consensus that what is written for an international Arabic readership is called MSA and has its own lexis and syntax)
Swahili

Hardly worth differentiating because the countries where the language is established as a/the national or major community language are agreed officially on most usages
German
Dutch
Persian
Tagalog
Hindi
Korean

Counter-productive, because there’s next to nothing to differentiate in the standard written language anywhere in the world but the client would start thinking there was
Russian
Italian
Chinese (leaving Cantonese out of the definition for these purposes)
Japanese
Turkish
Hebrew


Not an easy one to resolve!


** This is even the case for English: I have had great frustrations persuading some (certainly not all) Dutch commercial clients that a good translator (and even interpreter) is perfectly able to adapt to the target audience in what few (far fewer than many non-linguist clients would think) instances there are of genuine straight dichotomies of translation choice for geographical language variant that would affect understanding. More generally, there is a tendency among northern European clients for translations who have some appreciation for the nuances of English to insist on, or at least prefer where available, an ‘American English’ provider for ‘chatty’ or marketing jobs, and ‘British English’ for ‘formal’ or ‘quality’ jobs — whatever we do, we don’t want to encourage any further this misapprehended equating of language variant with a supposedly inherent register, style or tone.

[Edited at 2012-11-01 19:03 GMT]
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Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 17:31
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Great post, Alexander! Nov 1, 2012

Alexander C. Thomson wrote:

At the least, let us think long and hard about the situation for each language...

Great, thoughtful post, Alexander. I would add that the proper way to address language variants, if at all, depends not only on language but also on the application, be it KudoZ, profiles, jobs, contests, CPN screening and so on.

This is why I felt the proper place to start is just by gathering information, and looking at things specifically, language by language.


 
Alexander C. Thomson
Alexander C. Thomson  Identity Verified
Netherlands
Local time: 22:31
Dutch to English
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Agree Nov 1, 2012

Henry Dotterer wrote:

… This is why I felt the proper place to start is just by gathering information, and looking at things specifically, language by language.


— Yes, and I appreciate your efforts in gathering opinions and case studies, Henry. A sensible approach. I’ve just updated the post to have a stab at categorising the languages with most presence/turnover on ProZ.

I fear that whatever solution ProZ hits upon for most major languages, there will be some intractables: the language variety issue has shaped the entire modern/nationalist era of public discourse in Ireland, Wales, Norway, Greece, the South Slavic countries, India, the Philippines, Indonesia and more.

Some of those tough cases have had the outcome that the varieties have been canonised as separate national languages (even with different scripts) despite minimal phonological/morphological/lexical/syntactical differences (or more than minimal in the case of Hindi/Urdu), and hence that translators have typically not ventured to offer more than one language (variety).

Others have gone in the opposite direction: there now is an educational and journalistic norm for the written national standard of Welsh, Irish, Greek, Tagalog and Indonesian, and translators wouldn’t appreciate the old cans of worms being reopened by clients unaware of the blood, sweat and tears that have been shed to attain the status quo.

It’s not inconceivable that a compulsion (which it seems you’re unlikely to push for) to identify language variants across the board could cost translators/interpreters work and be the cause of incomprehending arguments between client and provider. For instance: a foreign client wanting documents translated/localised for Georgia might be waylaid, if he hears of the existence of Mingrelian and Svan (due to their existence on a list on ProZ alongside actual dialects/varieties of Georgian such as Kakhetian, Ajaran and Imeretian), into thinking that he must have translators into that ‘variety’ of the language (they have been separate languages for over a thousand years, and have a very slender written existence) for those regions of the country. For such cases, it is better not to trouble the client’s head with notions of language variety at the ProZ search stage and let these issues be raised in dialogue between client and translator as they see fit for the job.

[Edited at 2012-11-01 19:29 GMT]


 
Henry Dotterer
Henry Dotterer
Local time: 17:31
SITE FOUNDER
TOPIC STARTER
Right, Alexander Nov 1, 2012

Alexander C. Thomson wrote:
It’s not inconceivable that a compulsion (which it seems you’re unlikely to push for) to identify language variants across the board could cost translators/interpreters work and be the cause of incomprehending arguments between client and provider. For instance: a foreign client wanting documents translated/localised for Georgia might be waylaid, if he hears of the existence of Mingrelian and Svan (due to their existence on a list on ProZ alongside actual dialects/varieties of Georgian such as Kakhetian, Ajaran and Imeretian), into thinking that he must have translators into that ‘variety’ of the language (they have been separate languages for over a thousand years, and have a very slender written existence) for those regions of the country. For such cases, it is better not to trouble the client’s head with notions of language variety at the ProZ search stage and let these issues be raised in dialogue between client and translator as they see fit for the job.

Yeah. We haven't, and would not, do that sort of thing.


 
MariyaN (X)
MariyaN (X)  Identity Verified
United States
Japanese to Russian
+ ...
Thank you, Alexander, Nov 1, 2012

for pointing this out.

Alexander C. Thomson wrote:


Counter-productive, because there’s next to nothing to differentiate in the standard written language anywhere in the world but the client would start thinking there was
Russian
Italian
Chinese (leaving Cantonese out of the definition for these purposes)
Japanese
Turkish
Hebrew



Just yesterday I came across the profile of a Russian translator who indicated her native language as "Russian (Variant: Moscow)". There is no such thing as "Moscow Russian", for God's sake. Neither there is such thing as "Russian (Ukraine)" or "Russian (Moldova)". There is just one Russian, into which all translations are done. But now that she has it in her profile, imagine what the clients will think when they need a Russian translator.
While I understand that for Spanisn and Portuguese distinguishing between European and Latin American may in most cases be a valuable additional feature for both the translators and the clients who work with these languages, the fact that a member can actually type anything in the field seems to be a little disturbing - at least to me, after I saw that native speaker of Moscow Russian. I think, if the variant feature is going to be applied, there should be some limits for it to be used only in those cases and for those languages when it's really important and helps both the translators and their clients, and not in a way that can easily cause confusion.


 
KKastenhuber
KKastenhuber  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 22:31
Russian to German
+ ...
Feedback on entries for German so far + some other things Nov 1, 2012

Henry Dotterer wrote:

I would add that the proper way to address language variants, if at all, depends not only on language but also on the application, be it KudoZ, profiles, jobs, contests, CPN screening and so on.



Good point. I remember that my entry for the 9th translation contest was rated down for using correct Austrian Standard German (not obscure austriacisms), although there had been no specifications made beforehand concerning the variety of German we were supposed to write in. (Had it been otherwise, I would have known what changes to make or chosen not to enter my translation at all.)


As to the feedback you asked for, here's what has been entered for German so far:

Deutschland (="Germany"): 6 times
Deutsch (="German"): 4 times
Hochdeutsch (most commonly stands for "High German" in the sense of "Standard German"): 2 times

12 entries aren't a lot, but they prove to me that for the case of German (and I'm sure not only German), this feature is largely useless or even detrimental. All three varieties entered up to now seem to aim for the same thing: proving that one speaks and writes "unmarked" German (whatever that may be). This is done either by stating that one is from Germany (this serves as an automatic qualification, since German from Germany is often equated with Standard German, which is a fallacy) or that one speaks Standard German, without revealing where one is from (which is no more than stating the obvious, since written text in German is and always has been expected to be in Standard German no matter where the translator is from).

The feature as suggested right now only reinforces the widespread prejudice that varieties of German outside of Germany are automatically non-standard. Sorry for being so critical, Henry, but even the wording of the thread title gives that impression: Which "variant", if any, of your native language do you speak? If any? Doesn't this suggest that there must be a "non-variant", something that is the real deal, and not just a less prestigious version of it? And if there is, where is it spoken? In the case of German, people will usually think that the answer is: in Germany. But the only somewhat legitimate justification for them to think so is the fact that Germany has about five times as many native German speakers as all the rest of us have counted together. German German is not better, it's not more correct, and it's not uniform itself. It is not the "non-variant" whose existence the thread title suggests.

I can see the Portuguese speaking folks' need for such a feature, since the differences in written European Portuguese and written Brazilian Portuguese are much bigger, but I maintain that in the case of German it's no use to anyone, and potentially even harmful to those of us who don't come from Germany.

And I would like to add that I like Alexander's approach of not lumping all languages together. The solution might indeed be an individual one for different languages.

[Edited at 2012-11-01 21:00 GMT]


 
Ty Kendall
Ty Kendall  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:31
Hebrew to English
This feature is really only useful.... Nov 1, 2012

....for those languages whose variants are so divergent as to practically be mutually unintelligible (i.e. so it would probably serve some purpose for Portuguese but not for English).

 
Helena Chavarria
Helena Chavarria  Identity Verified
Spain
Local time: 22:31
Member (2011)
Spanish to English
+ ...
British/US English Nov 1, 2012

I am British and I would find it impossible to translate into US English. I know the odd word/difference: garbage - rubbish; subway - underground/tube; gotten - got; cool - great, ize- ise, etc. but I'm afraid that's as far as I can go.

When asked, I happily translate into my acquired language, Spanish, but I would never translate into US English.


 
José Henrique Lamensdorf
José Henrique Lamensdorf  Identity Verified
Brazil
Local time: 18:31
English to Portuguese
+ ...
In memoriam
It's too messy... and it may be our fault (translators) Nov 1, 2012

Henry Dotterer wrote:

OK, folks, as this is for now an information gathering exercise, we'd like to share the data that is coming in. We'd be interested in your reactions, especially to the variants being entered in your language(s).

See: http://www.proz.com/demographics.php/native-variants


Copying from there...
Brazilian | Portuguese | 29
Brazil | Portuguese | 5
European | Portuguese | 14
Portugal | Portuguese | 2

British | English | 29
UK | English | 12
US | English | 9
American, International | English | 2


No additional comments are needed.

I just wonder about "International English". My view is that if it's spoken/written badly enough to conceal any "legit" variant, it would be rated as "International".


As I am entitled to two messages here, I'd like to take this chance to cover two more points.

Portuguese seems to be a unique case. The fact is that in all languages we use words to express ideas. On top of all usual differences in grammar, vocabulary, phrasal structure, pronunciation, etc. etc. all other languages have between their variants, PT-BR and PT-PT differ in the logic used to convert ideas into words.

Those who haven't grasped it may read my attempt to explain it in English under #6 at http://www.lamensdorf.com.br/ptxbr.html .

Bottom line is that I can't envision one same translator, even if well trained in both PT variants, which is very difficult to achieve and requires relocation, to be able to handle either way of encoding ideas into words consistently.


Secondly, I think competence as a translator is the paramount criterion. If it's not there, native speakerness is useless. Over and over again I've seen translations into "US Portuguese" by some countryfellows of mine. They translate the words, yet they keep the EN-US writing style in what should be PT-BR.

Since native speakerness of a language may be a quite imprecise concept, the only bulletproof statement would be what language(s) and which of their respective variant(s) one is competent to translate into:
a) according to him/herself,
b) according to some competent authority (ATA, IoL, NAATI, gov't, etc.),
c) according to tests some Prozians attempted to impose on that looong thread.

The $50 question is: What's the point of ascertaining and asserting that someone is a thoroughbred native speaker of X-ese, if that poor dolt can't translate decently into that language?


 
Marina Steinbach
Marina Steinbach
United States
Local time: 17:31
Member (2011)
English to German
Could you explain this to me in more detail? Nov 2, 2012

KKastenhuber wrote:

You are being asked to use the English term for the variety you are going to enter, but apparently other users haven't gotten that message either.


I still don't know what kind of "English term" I am being asked to enter for the "variety". Could you explain this to me in more detail?



 
XXXphxxx (X)
XXXphxxx (X)  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 21:31
Portuguese to English
+ ...
Data collection Nov 2, 2012

Henry Dotterer wrote:

OK, folks, as this is for now an information gathering exercise, we'd like to share the data that is coming in. We'd be interested in your reactions, especially to the variants being entered in your language(s).

See: http://www.proz.com/demographics.php/native-variants


Henry,

I'm also rather unclear on where this is heading but that aside, I'm just wondering why there isn't a drop-down menu, which would surely make your data gathering more coherent? What, for example, are Japanese (variant: English) or Vietnamese (variant: American/British)?


 
KKastenhuber
KKastenhuber  Identity Verified
Austria
Local time: 22:31
Russian to German
+ ...
Explanation for Marina Nov 2, 2012

Marina Steinbach wrote:

KKastenhuber wrote:

You are being asked to use the English term for the variety you are going to enter, but apparently other users haven't gotten that message either.


I still don't know what kind of "English term" I am being asked to enter for the "variety". Could you explain this to me in more detail?



E.g., if I were to enter the information that I speak an Austrian variety of German, I would have to write "German (Austria)" or "Austrian German" and not "Deutsch (Österreich)" or "Österreichisches Deutsch". This is only requested in this early stage of data gathering so the ProZ team can easily evaluate the information that is being entered. It might be handled differently when/if the feature is permanently implemented.


 
Siegfried Armbruster
Siegfried Armbruster  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 22:31
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam
Interesting discussion Nov 2, 2012

I find a few aspects in this thread remarkable.

Sudden change of focus
In the long thread on "nativeness" there was a very strong group touting again and again that "nativeness" is everything. Now that Proz wants to go ahead in this direction and collects data on language variants, "proficiency/ability" to translate into a language variant suddenly gains a lot of support.

Which languages have variants and which languages don't?
It is very inte
... See more
I find a few aspects in this thread remarkable.

Sudden change of focus
In the long thread on "nativeness" there was a very strong group touting again and again that "nativeness" is everything. Now that Proz wants to go ahead in this direction and collects data on language variants, "proficiency/ability" to translate into a language variant suddenly gains a lot of support.

Which languages have variants and which languages don't?
It is very interesting that I (native German for Germany, living in Germany) who regularly translates into German-Germany, German-Switzerland and German-Belgium feels that there are clear differences, (in terminology, spelling, grammar and cultural context) between the various German language variants, whereas some Austrian colleagues are fighting for their ability to speak/write "Standard German" (an ability I am not disputing at all) and one even claims that native speakers not living in the country where their native language is spoken are often even more capable to translate into their native language than translators who stayed in their native country (my opinion in German for Austria "Das ist Topfen").

Another example is Dutch; there is a very clear statement in this forum "Dutch. There is ONE (and only one) written language with one grammar".
I don't want to go into the argument if this is the case or not, but funny enough Dutch is one, maybe even the only language for which PROZ provided 2 variants from the beginning (Dutch and Flemish) and I don't remember that there ever was a lot of discussion about this feature.

As outsourcer, we often need information about the language variants a translator can handle. For us it is important to know if a translator can translate e.g. into German for Switzerland or into French for Switzerland or Canada; or into US or British English etc.
This is about proficiency; there is no real need to know if this language variant is his/her native language variant.

As a freelancer I want to be able to express my ability to handle various language variants, again, this is about proficiency, not about nativeness.

I can see some use of having the language variants also specified in various Kudoz scenarios.

This whole business of introducing language variants will not resolve the issue of false claims regarding "native language", in contrast if the language variants are combined with the field "native language", things will only become a lot more complicated and a lot more people will see a "need" to cheat to gain access to certain market segments.


[Edited at 2012-11-02 12:22 GMT]
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